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Ganseurs
changement à vue
May 28, 2013 16:59
11 yrs ago
French term

salut d'épaule

French to English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature
Theseus is navigating the Labyrinth by keeping to the right-hand wall. But he has been told that keeping to the left would work equally well. "Désormais il irait, gardant sa droite sans rien sauter, pas le plus infime portillon [mais] il se souviendrait que la gauche peut aussi le guider au salut. Ainsi Thésée changeait de temps en temps son salut d'épaule." The shoulder that will lead him to salvation (the Exit), his "leading shoulder"?

I just can't visualize exactly what he's doing!

TIA.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +1 changing his "salut" (escape route) to the other shoulder
3 changed the hand with which he reached for his salvation
3 Hence, from time to time, Thésée relied on his other shoulder for his salvation.
3 change salutary shoulder
2 veered from left to right
References
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus

Discussion

DLyons (asker) May 29, 2013:
@Nikki I've now got to the end and part of the story line seems to be that Ariadne was not only testing Theseus but preparing herself for her afterlife with the god Dionysus. It's a pretty light piece (apologies Gaston), written on holidays - I wouldn't over-interpret it myself.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne May 29, 2013:
I may be over-reading this, but the idea between Ariadne's thread was also to make sure there was no deviation from the straight line, sticking to the objective with a view to obtaining a certain result. There is the idea that when you are left and right, that you are all over the show, thus not sticking to the straight line, not adhering to the right strategy, indeed, not to any strategy at all.
Wolf Draeger May 28, 2013:
Thanks D, that's helpful. Now I can also find my way out of this maze :)
DLyons (asker) May 28, 2013:
@Wolf The background is that Fraignau invited Yourcenar and Baissette to holiday in Greece in 1932. They had a common interest in Classical Greece (had written Les Voyageurs Transformés, Pindare and Hippocrate respectively prior to that). They played a writer's game there where each independently wrote a piece about the Theseus legend during the holiday - that tri-partite piece was published as "Triptyque" by Cahiers du Sud in 1939.

I don't read Baissette's piece as political, more a light comedy. Much of the point (insofar as there is one) seems to be the ineptness of heroes. After 7 days, Ariadne eventually sends out a slave who retrieves Theseus and the other sacrifical victims within an hour.

Yourcenar's section is "Ariane et l'aventurier" which eventually was re-written to become "Qui n'a pas son Minotaure?" and the latter was somewhat informed by the war.
Wolf Draeger May 28, 2013:
More Qs D, maybe I'm being a bit dense, but I'm still not sure of the overall context. It's a take on the Theseus legend. OK. Then you say he's been told to keep to the right, but actually the left is also fine, so it seems he'll actually end up hopelessly lost...plus "he's none too sure which is his right and which is his left". Is this a piece of satire or a comic story? What is the overall gist of the text, and how closely does it resemble the Greek legend?

A cursory look at Baissette on Wikipedia reveals he had Communist leanings. Could the "keep left/right" then refer to political ideologies? Might the whole thing be a political allegory?
DLyons (asker) May 28, 2013:
Sorry!!! It was so obvious to me that I was working with the Theseus legend that I didn't tell anyone. I hate it when people do that. Anyway, for my sins, I had naan bread and a piece of melon (no Boeuf nor Crevettes here)
Nikki Scott-Despaigne May 28, 2013:
The info about the time setting is helpful. I was going to ask the question as the fusil/épaule this seemed to be out of synch on the time-line. It makes all the more sense now.
You need something about the guy erring from one side to another. You'll find something to fit in with the style you have been using for the rest of your piece. I think we have more or less reached a consensus. Actually feeling quite dumb that I didn't pick up on the Ariadne earlier. Guess I lost the thread somewhere along the line (ha ha), no doubt when preparing the Boeuf and Crevettes Saté earlier on this evening!
DLyons (asker) May 28, 2013:
@Nikki Yes, that's the Theseus legend. The story I'm working with has some variations on in - Ariadne leads him to the Minotaur, leaves and tells Theseus to follow the right-hand wall to get out. But he's none too sure which is his right and which his left - well he's a man after all :-)
Paul Hirsh May 28, 2013:
I think Nikki is on the right track. Forget shoulders.
DLyons (asker) May 28, 2013:
@Wolf Sorry for the confusion. It's a French 1930's story by Baissette, who was interested in Classical Greece, about the Minotaur. In it, Ariadne tells Theseus to keep to the right. To me, that's the "right-hand rule" algorithm (but I don't translate as such of course). The story seems to have it as a 3-D maze (although that's not critical) so even the Pledge algorithm might not have worked.
Wolf Draeger May 28, 2013:
@DLyons I'm a bit confused...is the extract referring to the Greek legend, or something else? Ariadne gave Theseus a thread to find his way out the maze, but you mention an algorithm, which refers to Ariadne's Thread in logic...When was this text written; is it an original French text, or a translation from Greek/Latin; and what is it about, in general?
DLyons (asker) May 28, 2013:
@Nikki Yes, left-right is the key issue. Ariadne has given him a maze-following algorithm which works for simply-connected mazes but, as he is discovering to his cost, fails miserably for one with "islands". They've been walking for the last week so the more traditional thread wouldn't have worked either. It's not easy being either a hero or his moll!
Nikki Scott-Despaigne May 28, 2013:
Another idea You could forget the shoulder thing and shift the emphasis to the right/left element. There are quite a lot of expressions with left/right. Let me get back to the search engines... broom, broom!
DLyons (asker) May 28, 2013:
@all Thanks guys. Fresh minds are wonderful!
Nikki Scott-Despaigne May 28, 2013:
So we need a synonymous expression we can play around with a bit... let's get searching!!!
Paul Hirsh May 28, 2013:
absolutely Nikki, this is a calque on that expression
Nikki Scott-Despaigne May 28, 2013:
I keep having the expression "changer son fusil d'épaule" come to mind here. Might it not be a play on that expression, although a might anachronistic here, but perhaps deliberately. The expression means to change one's mind. Now, how to keep that idea, in English, whilst retaining the context.
Tony M May 28, 2013:
Look at it the other way round Just as one might say « changeait son épée de main », I think you need to look at this as 'changed his salvation to the other shoulder' — maybe that will help you to find a way to express that in EN?

Proposed translations

+1
5 mins
Selected

changing his "salut" (escape route) to the other shoulder

The syntax has fooled you into assuming this is a phrase. changer d'epaule = changing it to the other shoulder


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Note added at 8 mins (2013-05-28 17:08:09 GMT)
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so you could translate as "from time to time he tried the other escape route"
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard : Yes, I think the asker has parsed it wrongly.
22 mins
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks Paul. You were the first, and got me to parse the phrase correctly."
22 mins
French term (edited): salut d\'épaule

changed the hand with which he reached for his salvation

Though this is not military imagery.
Note from asker:
That's really nicely put.
Something went wrong...
2 hrs

Hence, from time to time, Thésée relied on his other shoulder for his salvation.

As mentioned in the discussion, this "change son salut d'épaule" comes from the French expression "changer son fusil d'épaule"
"Changer le fusil d'épaule. Placer sur une autre épaule − le fusil. Fig. Changer son fusil d'épaule. Adopter une autre manière d'agir, de penser". Source: CNRTL

Though, you can imagine that at the time the story of Thésée was written, no rifle or gun existed. So I don't think we have to keep in mind the military context to translate properly.
Hence this suggestion.
Note from asker:
Thanks Elsa. That works well.
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3 hrs

change salutary shoulder

The shoulder that will lead him to salvation but I like 'salutary shoulder'
And yes, I agree with others that it is a play on 'changer son fusil d'épaule' but there is only so much we can do in a translaton
Note from asker:
Thanks SafeTex. Yes, nice and concise!
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5 hrs

veered from left to right

In light of the extra context and background provided by D in the discussion box, my interpretation is that the "hero" of the story can't find his way out of the maze for lack of grey matter, and is thus veering from one side to the other, despite the clear instructions he was given to keep to the right.

Agree with Nikki's explanation of "changer son fusil d'épaule" as the source of the term in French and that one doesn't need to retain that imagery here.

It's tempting to see a political allegory here, but I haven't read the book, so I won't even venture there.
Example sentence:

And so Theseus veered from left to right on his way to the exit.

And so Theseus veered from left to right as he searched/groped for the exit.

Note from asker:
Thanks for sticking with me on this one Wolf!
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Reference comments

3 hrs
Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus

"On the third occasion, Theseus volunteered to slay the monster. He took the place of one of the youths and set off with a black sail, promising to his father, Aegeus, that if successful he would return with a white sail.[10] Like the others, Theseus was stripped of his weapons when they sailed. On his arrival in Crete, Ariadne, King Minos' daughter, fell in love with Theseus and, on the advice of Daedalus, gave him a ball of thread or clue, so he could find his way out of the Labyrinth.[11] That night, Ariadne escorted Theseus to the Labyrinth, and Theseus promised that if he returned from the Labyrinth he would take Ariadne with him. As soon as Theseus entered the Labyrinth, he tied one end of the ball of string to the door post and brandished his sword which he had kept hidden from the guards inside his tunic. Theseus followed Daedalus' instructions given to Ariadne; go forwards, always down and never left or right. Theseus came to the heart of the Labyrinth and also upon the sleeping Minotaur. The beast awoke and a tremendous fight then occurred. Theseus overpowered the Minotaur with his strength and stabbed the beast in the throat with his sword (according to one scholium on Pindar's Fifth Nemean Ode, Theseus strangled it).[12"

Ariadne as in "fil d'Ariane". The soulder is secondary, the left right, straight ahead is the key.

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Note added at 3 hrs (2013-05-28 20:34:27 GMT)
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SHoulder of course. So, the idea is that in your extract, Theseus shifts from one side to another. The "fil d'Ariane" is the line to follow; shifting from left to right means diverting from the key strategy which leads to salvation, to the way out, to success.

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Note added at 3 hrs (2013-05-28 20:38:28 GMT)
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Thus, "At times, Theseus would err left, at others, he would err right."
Of, "From time to time Theseus would seek his salvation on one side, then to the other".



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Note added at 3 hrs (2013-05-28 20:41:58 GMT)
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I'm with the guy who talked about algorithms : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariadne's_thread_(logic).
The key element to applying Ariadne's thread to a problem is the creation and maintenance of a record - physical or otherwise - of the problem's available and exhausted options at all times. This record is referred to as the "thread", regardless of its actual medium. The purpose the record serves is to permit backtracking - that is, reversing earlier decisions and trying alternatives. Given the record, applying the algorithm is straightforward:
At any moment that there is a choice to be made, make one arbitrarily from those not already marked as failures, and follow it logically as far as possible.
If a contradiction results, back up to the last decision made, mark it as a failure, and try another decision at the same point. If no other options exist there, back up to the last place in the record that does, mark the failure at that level, and proceed onward.
This algorithm will terminate upon either finding a solution or marking all initial choices as failures; in the latter case, there is no solution. If a thorough examination is desired even though a solution has been found, one can revert to the previous decision, mark the success, and continue on as if a solution were never found; the algorithm will exhaust all decisions and find all solutions.

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Note added at 3 hrs (2013-05-28 20:43:27 GMT)
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Oh, this is not work; this is fun. Actually dusted off my Illustrated Edition of Greek Myths by Robert Graves.
Note from asker:
Thanks for all your work on this Nikki.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Daryo : this is not work; this is fun
1 day 16 hrs
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