Glossary entry (derived from question below)
Russian term or phrase:
Поток
English translation:
banishment, to be banished (in ancient law)
Added to glossary by
Chris Lovelace
Feb 1, 2014 02:12
10 yrs ago
Russian term
Argentina
20+ years of published work, MDiv, ThM.
Native in: English
Works in: Russian to English, Spanish to English, English
Поток
Russian to English
Art/Literary
Law (general)
Ancient: Yaroslav's Code
The term свод, as it is used in Yaroslav's legal code from the 10th century, does not seem to be used in the same sense as the contemporary term.
How would you recommend translating на поток in the following excerpt from vol. 2, chap. 3 of History of the Russian State:
II. «Ежели кто убьет человека в ссоре или в пьянстве и скроется, то Вервь, или округа, где совершилось убийство, платит за него пеню» - которая называлась в таком случае дикою Вирою - «но в разные сроки, и в несколько лет, для облегчения жителей. За найденное мертвое тело человека неизвестного Вервь не ответствует. - Когда же убийца не скроется, то с округи или с волости взыскать половину Виры, а другую с самого убийцы». Закон весьма благоразумный в тогдашние времена: облегчая судьбу преступника, разгоряченного вином или ссорою, он побуждал всякого быть миротворцем, чтобы в случае убийства не платить вместе с виновным. - «Ежели убийство сделается без всякой ссоры, то волость не платит за убийцу, но выдает его на поток» - или в руки Государю - «с женою, с детьми и с имением». Устав жестокий и несправедливый по нашему образу мыслей; но жена и дети ответствовали тогда за вину мужа и родителя, ибо считались его собственностию.
Here is the full text of Karamzin, II, 3:
How would you recommend translating на поток in the following excerpt from vol. 2, chap. 3 of History of the Russian State:
II. «Ежели кто убьет человека в ссоре или в пьянстве и скроется, то Вервь, или округа, где совершилось убийство, платит за него пеню» - которая называлась в таком случае дикою Вирою - «но в разные сроки, и в несколько лет, для облегчения жителей. За найденное мертвое тело человека неизвестного Вервь не ответствует. - Когда же убийца не скроется, то с округи или с волости взыскать половину Виры, а другую с самого убийцы». Закон весьма благоразумный в тогдашние времена: облегчая судьбу преступника, разгоряченного вином или ссорою, он побуждал всякого быть миротворцем, чтобы в случае убийства не платить вместе с виновным. - «Ежели убийство сделается без всякой ссоры, то волость не платит за убийцу, но выдает его на поток» - или в руки Государю - «с женою, с детьми и с имением». Устав жестокий и несправедливый по нашему образу мыслей; но жена и дети ответствовали тогда за вину мужа и родителя, ибо считались его собственностию.
Here is the full text of Karamzin, II, 3:
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +1 | banishment, to be banished |
Rachel Douglas
|
| 4 | arrest him |
DTSM
|
| 4 | plundering and... |
OlgaKZ
|
| 3 -1 | sentence to death |
DmitrySams (X)
|
Proposed translations
+1
2 hrs
Rachel Douglas
United States
United States
Native in English
Works in field
United States
Excellent English from Russian originals
Native in: English (Variants: US, British, Australian)
Works in: Russian to English
Related KudoZ points
:
235
Selected
banishment, to be banished
Pushkarev, again: "potok. In old Russian, banishment, exile."
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Note added at 3 hrs (2014-02-01 05:14:07 GMT)
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Although what Dimak said makes more sense in this context, because how can you be banished along with your property? Or maybe the interpolation outside the direct quotation marks is supposed to indicate that the person and all his family were to be handed over to the Sovereign to do as he might with them (banish, incarcerate, etc.) and the property likewise handed over (confiscated).
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Note added at 3 hrs (2014-02-01 05:39:13 GMT)
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Getting serious now: here's from the Словарь русского языка XXI-XVII вв. This is the second entry for поток, the first being related to flowing things. This one is related to поточить.
ПОТОК, М. Вид наказания в росском феодальном праве: первоначально - изгнание, впоследствии - обращение в рабство.
Then it suggests look at the entry for поточение, where we find:
ПОТОЧЕНИЕ, с. Изгнание, ссылка, заточение.
... I would that all speaks pretty well for "banished". He would be banished from the community with all his family, with Karamzin clarifying that this means handed over to the Sovereign to do with as he might wish, and all his property would be confiscated.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2014-02-01 05:39:53 GMT)
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Typo - русском not росском.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2014-02-01 05:40:30 GMT)
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Oh, sorry! Too many other typos to note them all.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2014-02-01 05:54:55 GMT)
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Lastly, here's from a Pushkinsky Dom parallel edition of the Russkaya Pravda. http://lib.pushkinskijdom.ru/Default.aspx?tabid=4947
Original:
7. Оже станеть без вины на разбои. Будеть ли сталъ на разбои безъ всякоя свады, то за разбоиника люди не платять, но выдадять и всего съ женою и с дѣтми на потокъ и на разграбление.
Modern:
7. Если <кто> свершит убийство без причины. <Если кто> свершил убийство без всякой ссоры, то люди за убийцу не платят, но пусть выдадут его самого с женою и детьми на изгнание и на разграбление.
So they freely substitute "изгнание" for "поток".
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Note added at 3 hrs (2014-02-01 05:14:07 GMT)
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Although what Dimak said makes more sense in this context, because how can you be banished along with your property? Or maybe the interpolation outside the direct quotation marks is supposed to indicate that the person and all his family were to be handed over to the Sovereign to do as he might with them (banish, incarcerate, etc.) and the property likewise handed over (confiscated).
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2014-02-01 05:39:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Getting serious now: here's from the Словарь русского языка XXI-XVII вв. This is the second entry for поток, the first being related to flowing things. This one is related to поточить.
ПОТОК, М. Вид наказания в росском феодальном праве: первоначально - изгнание, впоследствии - обращение в рабство.
Then it suggests look at the entry for поточение, where we find:
ПОТОЧЕНИЕ, с. Изгнание, ссылка, заточение.
... I would that all speaks pretty well for "banished". He would be banished from the community with all his family, with Karamzin clarifying that this means handed over to the Sovereign to do with as he might wish, and all his property would be confiscated.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2014-02-01 05:39:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Typo - русском not росском.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2014-02-01 05:40:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Oh, sorry! Too many other typos to note them all.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2014-02-01 05:54:55 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Lastly, here's from a Pushkinsky Dom parallel edition of the Russkaya Pravda. http://lib.pushkinskijdom.ru/Default.aspx?tabid=4947
Original:
7. Оже станеть без вины на разбои. Будеть ли сталъ на разбои безъ всякоя свады, то за разбоиника люди не платять, но выдадять и всего съ женою и с дѣтми на потокъ и на разграбление.
Modern:
7. Если <кто> свершит убийство без причины. <Если кто> свершил убийство без всякой ссоры, то люди за убийцу не платят, но пусть выдадут его самого с женою и детьми на изгнание и на разграбление.
So they freely substitute "изгнание" for "поток".
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks, Rachel. I didn't have Pushkarev handy when I asked the question, but you are right. Pushkarev is the definitive resource for this sort of term."
24 mins
Russian term (edited):
выдает его на поток
arrest him
Поток — арест, заточение в темницу. Формула древнерусского права «выдать на поток и разграбление» означала арест с конфискацией имущества.
http://www.e-reading.co.uk/chapter.php/1012649/81/Irtenina_-...
http://www.e-reading.co.uk/chapter.php/1012649/81/Irtenina_-...
12 hrs
plundering and...
I can help with the search of the old meaning of this word.
There is an old Russian phrase "Отдать на поток и разграбление", which is more complete than that mentioned in your text.
Here is the link that could be a help, explaining this phrase.
http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/dic_wingwords/3441/Отдать
But the phrase in the link is more complete than that mentioned in your text : "Отдать на поток и разграбление"
This old Russian phrase was used in the ancient Russian law "Russian Truth" (11th century) developed in the times of Prince of Kiev Yaroslav that was first published in 1767. According to Vladimir Dal’s dictionary of Russian words, «поток» meant the plundering of homes and property (as an ordinary punishment), derived from the verb "поточить ", meaning “plundering”. In the modern Russian language, there are cognate words, archaic with the word “поток” -- «расточительный», «расточитель». Allegorically it meant “to bring to violence and total plunder, to strip of possessions and to deprive of any rights.
Hope this info will be a help to you.
There is an old Russian phrase "Отдать на поток и разграбление", which is more complete than that mentioned in your text.
Here is the link that could be a help, explaining this phrase.
http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/dic_wingwords/3441/Отдать
But the phrase in the link is more complete than that mentioned in your text : "Отдать на поток и разграбление"
This old Russian phrase was used in the ancient Russian law "Russian Truth" (11th century) developed in the times of Prince of Kiev Yaroslav that was first published in 1767. According to Vladimir Dal’s dictionary of Russian words, «поток» meant the plundering of homes and property (as an ordinary punishment), derived from the verb "поточить ", meaning “plundering”. In the modern Russian language, there are cognate words, archaic with the word “поток” -- «расточительный», «расточитель». Allegorically it meant “to bring to violence and total plunder, to strip of possessions and to deprive of any rights.
Hope this info will be a help to you.
Discussion
1) ПОТОК, М. Вид наказания в русском феодальном праве: первоначально - изгнание, впоследствии - обращение в рабство. (banishment vs enslaving, that's two different things);
2) ПОТОЧЕНИЕ, с. Изгнание, ссылка, заточение. (exile vs banishment vs imprisonment, that's three different things). What I'm saying is that you can't exile, banish, enslave and imprison someone at the same time, no matter how serious the crime is. The fact that the meaning of "поток" changed over time makes it even more complicated since it is hard to determine what meaning Karamzin used in this particular excerpt.
Last night when I was looking for any English translations of Norse legal codes, which also included such a punishment, I came across etymologies pointing out that "ransack" originated with Old Norse "ransakka", meaning "house search" - and that this referred to a warrantless but legal search for stolen goods.
The problems with using that in this context are 1) the changed sense of modern English "ransack", which doesn't usually bring to mind legal procedures, 2) the fact that Karamzin here doesn't write "на поток и разграбление", but "волость ... выдает его на поток» - или в руки Государю - «с женою, с детьми и с имением»", and 3) there are at least two authoritative historical dictionaries of Russian that say in very early usage it meant изгнание.
If it's true, then it means 'ransack the property and take away the family (for slavery/servitude?)' I don't know, I'm just guessing.