Glossary entry

Russian term or phrase:

юридические (за исключением адвокатских) услуги

English translation:

legal services (excluding attorney's fees)

Added to glossary by Tevah_Trans
Feb 5, 2008 16:22
16 yrs ago
2 viewers *
Russian term

юридические (за исключением адвокатских) услуги

Russian to English Bus/Financial Law (general)
Спасибо!
Change log

Feb 8, 2008 15:12: Tevah_Trans Created KOG entry

Discussion

Tevah_Trans Feb 6, 2008:
So I get now that the reason why "excluding attorney's services" - and thanks for explaining so well! :)
Nadezhda Kirichenko Feb 6, 2008:
всегда пожалуйста :)
Deborah Hoffman Feb 6, 2008:
Spasibo bol'shoe za stol' podrobnyi otvet!!!
Nadezhda Kirichenko Feb 6, 2008:
it's up to Galia to decide how to translate "адвокатские услуги", i.e. to use the term "advocate" which reflects Russian specifics, or select the option "barristers/solicitors" bearing in mind the target group for which the text is being translated
Nadezhda Kirichenko Feb 6, 2008:
therefore, any income obtained by law firms (take any international or Russian law firm practicing in Russia) will be covered by the suggested phrase. And all advocates's fees are to be excluded.
Nadezhda Kirichenko Feb 6, 2008:
income/revenue which is generated through getting fees for their services.
Nadezhda Kirichenko Feb 6, 2008:
Back to the question, I assume that they want to exclude "advocates" because the taxation is different in their respect. I'll try and find the relevant clauses in the Tax code in a minite. So by the suggested phrase they simply exclude advocates'
Nadezhda Kirichenko Feb 6, 2008:
done professionally.
Nadezhda Kirichenko Feb 6, 2008:
I was a legal counsel of a bank, then a real estate company when I was still studying in Moscow State University (part time, evening). Of course those were the last years of stufy, yet my employer wasn't bothered as soon as I could ensure that my work was
Nadezhda Kirichenko Feb 6, 2008:
there is no statute that would directly say that an ordinary lawyer (not being an advokate <-- the latter can not be an employee of any company btw) can practice law as such :) However in reality, people are free to practice even when being a law student
Nadezhda Kirichenko Feb 6, 2008:
the last link is for Deborah :)
Nadezhda Kirichenko Feb 6, 2008:
on behalf of the claimand/defendant/third party respectively without any problem even in cases when companies were represented by law firms' employees.
Nadezhda Kirichenko Feb 6, 2008:
activities. However courts never bothered too much so if a lawyer could present a valid power of attorney and sometimes "приказ о назначении" stating that such and such person indeed is an employee of one of the parties, he or she were allowed to act
Nadezhda Kirichenko Feb 6, 2008:
The federal law imposes a limitation prohibiting lawyers other than "advokates" to represent their clients in courts unless such lawyers are employees of the company they are representing. This limitation was lobbied by authorities supervising advokates'
Nadezhda Kirichenko Feb 6, 2008:
in civil cases (and that's what I did in the past when representing my former employer in courts of general jutisdiction and arbitrazh court - should not be confused with "arbitration").
Nadezhda Kirichenko Feb 6, 2008:
to deal with criminal cases. They an surely represent customers and advise in civil, administrative cases too. However, I (being just a lawyer = having a degree in law) can not advise on criminal cases but I am free to represent people or companies
Nadezhda Kirichenko Feb 6, 2008:
to Tevah: you've slightly misunderstood what I've said about "адвокат" - I didn't mean that all they do is represent their clients in criminal cases, not at all. What I said is (to paraphrase) that a lawyer being an "адвокат" has the right
Deborah Hoffman Feb 6, 2008:
and "Non-advocates have most of the same rights, but cannot defend clients in criminal proceedings." http://whichlawyer.practicallaw.com/4-201-5875, yet cheeter whom I'm assuming practices in Russia states this isn't so. Can anyone else help?
Deborah Hoffman Feb 6, 2008:
I am guessing that something has changed recently, because I keep reading <<Только адвокат может быть допущен в качестве защитника или представителя доверителя в уголовном процессе.>> http://www.rusjur.ru/partners/why_advocats
Deborah Hoffman Feb 6, 2008:
Nadezhda, do you happen to have the statute or ethical canon that specifies the functions of the two types (in Russian)? I've been looking all evening.
Tevah_Trans Feb 6, 2008:
Nadezhda - and not only criminal attorney. I am now translating a letter that has to do with a marriage gone bad, and the phrase in Russian is она наняла адвоката meaning she hired a divorce attorney. Attorneys represent people in court, criminal or civil
cheeter Feb 6, 2008:
Тут имеются ввиду юридические услуги в рамках консультаций, т.е. за исключением услуг судебных юристов (судебных расходов).
Nadezhda Kirichenko Feb 5, 2008:
sorry "НЕ обязательно defence attorney"
Nadezhda Kirichenko Feb 5, 2008:
адвокат - обязательно defence attorney. Они и просто юридические консультации предоставляют. Вся разница адвоката от "просто юриста", по большому счету, - это членство в соответствующей коллегии и право выступать в суде по уголовным делам.
Tevah_Trans Feb 5, 2008:
Legal services is inclusive of attorney services but not exclusively attorney services. The standard American expression is "profits derived from ... ..., Legal services (excluding attorneys' fees)". Attorney=advokat in general and legal usage AFAIK.
Angela Greenfield Feb 5, 2008:
адвокат = "defense attorney" в США. Attorney - это любой юрист, а вам нужно разграничить эти понятия, как я поняла.
sarandor (asker) Feb 5, 2008:
Thank you for the explanation, Deborah. It helps a lot.
Deborah Hoffman Feb 5, 2008:
I was afraid you were going to say that (see below). Good luck!
sarandor (asker) Feb 5, 2008:
Thank you, Simon and TevahTrans. But why "fees", not services?
sarandor (asker) Feb 5, 2008:
Simon, it's US.
PoveyTrans (X) Feb 5, 2008:
Galia, is this UK or US?
sarandor (asker) Feb 5, 2008:
Deborah, here it is:
...доходы, получаемые от управленческих, финансовых (за исключением услуг по страхованию и (или) перестрахованию рисков), консультационных, аудиторских, маркетинговых, юридических (за исключением адвокатских) услуг, услуг по сопровождению и поддержке программных продуктов, оказываемых резидентам, независимо от места фактического оказания услуг
Deborah Hoffman Feb 5, 2008:
Can you give more context? Title of document, or the surrounding sentences?

Proposed translations

+5
8 mins
Selected

legal services (excluding attorney's fees)

..
Peer comment(s):

agree KARIN ISBELL
14 mins
Thanks Karin!
agree David Knowles
1 hr
Thanks David!
agree Angela Greenfield : I would put "defense attorney's fees" instead (see Deborah's notes)
1 hr
Thanks Angela! However, I believe the language of the paragraph quoted by the asker is most closely represented by this phrase without "defense". It is any attorney imho.
agree Kate Pisman
2 hrs
Thanks Kate!
agree Iosif JUHASZ
4 hrs
Thanks Iosif!
agree Ravindra Godbole
18 hrs
Thanks Ravindra!
disagree Tatiana N. (X) : legal services excluding attorney's fees is ZERO services - legal services of any kind cannot be provided by anybody but an attorney
1 day 2 hrs
Not true. See lengthy discussion above.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you Tevah_Trans and everyone who answered and provided feedback. Thank you Nadezhda for your explanation. I decided to use "defense attorney fees", although I am not 100% sure. Thank you very much!"
59 mins

legal services (excluding barristers' fees)

could also be

legal services (excluding solicitors' fees)





--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 59 mins (2008-02-05 17:22:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Ah, thanks Galia, just seen your note.

This is really UK speak.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2008-02-05 18:49:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

@ Deborah

The generic term in the UK is lawyer which then splits into solicitor and barrister. The two used to be mutually exclusive where the barrister was the only person authorised to represent the client in certain courts and where the solicitor has more restricted access...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrister...my lawyer friends told me a while back that the system has undergone some changes.

but I wouldn't obratit' vnimanje na eto as your text relates to the US system which is quite different.

Peer comment(s):

neutral Deborah Hoffman : Thanks Simon!
9 hrs
Something went wrong...
1 hr

vot v chem delo (sm nizhe)

In Russia and the UK there are two main types of legal counselors: barrister/advokat and attorney/yurist. As far as I know an advokat is a yurist who can also defend criminal matters. The situation with a barrister is similar.

In the U.S. an attorney (the alternate term lawyer is mostly a matter of linguistic register and not of function) is an attorney. I'm a member of the bar and therefore can practice civil, criminal, whatever type of law; it is a question of specialization and experience rather than formal status.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 час (2008-02-05 17:40:34 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I would propose something like jurist services (except advokat fees) if your context is one in which the distinction is important.

Or if it is not so important to your client to be that precise (explaining the difference in legal system may help them decide) you could use "legal services (except attorney services)." It just sounds a little strange because they are one and the same in the US.

I'm not sure if the U.K. system is an exact matchup (Simon do you know?) to the Russian one and if so using the UK terms is also a possibility, again depending on what your client's goals are with this document.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 час (2008-02-06 02:49:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry, solicitor/barrister.
Peer comment(s):

agree Angela Greenfield : Deborah, I would use "defense attorney fees" since it's more closely renders the meaning in Russian.
17 mins
disagree cheeter : во-первых, в Англии barristers and solicitors, а не attorneys. Во-вторых, в РФ в уголовном деле защитником может выступать кто угодно, не обязательно член адвокатской коллегии и даже не юрист по специальности.
7 hrs
My answer comes from an article by Salans, a large firm in Moscow. If something has changed since 2005 please enlighten us. http://whichlawyer.practicallaw.com/4-201-5875
Something went wrong...
11 hrs

legal advisory (except for legal representation) services

.
Something went wrong...
1 day 2 hrs

legal services excluding litigation expenses

Costs of legal services are by the hour at one rate, cost for litigation is sometimes by the hour, and sometimes on a contingency (percentage of award) basis, and at a totally different rate, therefore, cost of litigation is always counted separately.

Moreover, many lawyers agree to offer legal advice, but not to go to court and try the case for the client, trial lawyers are a separate flock of lawyers, so for litigation a separate counsel is usually hired, at a different rate.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day2 hrs (2008-02-06 19:02:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

особенно учитывая замечание cheeter, что в России в уголовном деле защитником может не-юрист. Но здесь может иметься в виду любой судебный процесс, не обязательно уголовный...
Something went wrong...
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search