| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Doesn't the agency need to pay to me? Thread poster: reeishimi
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Natalie 
Poland
Local time: 20:37
Member (2002)
English to Russian
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MODERATOR SITE LOCALIZER | Rod Walters
Japan
Local time: 03:37
Japanese to English
| Use the time to better advantage | Jun 16, 2009 |
Six files for $120? I hope they were very short files indeed. But it doesn't sound as if they were.
Rather than engaging in a lot of unpleasantness over $120, wouldn't it be better just to shrug it off and devote all your future energy to finding reputable clients in Japan who pay properly?
The logic of involving China in translation between English and Japanese has never been obvious to me, and the implications of this are certainly worth pondering for any translator w... See more Six files for $120? I hope they were very short files indeed. But it doesn't sound as if they were.
Rather than engaging in a lot of unpleasantness over $120, wouldn't it be better just to shrug it off and devote all your future energy to finding reputable clients in Japan who pay properly?
The logic of involving China in translation between English and Japanese has never been obvious to me, and the implications of this are certainly worth pondering for any translator who wants to enjoy their life.
We have many opportunities in life to pursue vendettas, often with very good reason, but taking these opportunities always involves giving up other opportunities that will tend to lead to greater happiness. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I didn't mean anything specific. | Jun 16, 2009 |
Rie Ishimi wrote: Derek Gill Franßen wrote: Contracts do not need to be in writing or expressly declared. If someone (you) offers to do some work and the other person (them) accepts that offer, you have a contract in most legal systems of the world.  Would there be an oral contract even if I have never talked with them even on the phone? If you say that a contract automatically exists if I take their job, I wonder how I am supposed to know the contents in their contract. After sending an invoice, they suddenly told me that they could not pay to me because I didn't finish all 7 files by the due date and violated a contract. But isn't that unfair that they tell me their contract include the content that they cannot pay to a translator if s/he cannot finish all files by a due date with any circumstances (even if the agency allocate one document to another and submit all the 7 files from me and another translator to their client)?
Without going into the boring legal details, I was only commenting on your declaration that "there is no contract between the agency and me."
I certainly did not envisage a conversation on the telephone (something I rarely do when I deal with my clients) when I wrote my comment.
What I did envisage was the typical e-mail correspondence, along the lines of the following:
"How much would you charge to translate seven files by Friday?"
"I would charge USD ###.##."
"Great, go ahead."
Contents of the contract just concluded: Translation of seven files by Friday at the price of USD ###.##.
It doesn't always have to be some five page document with an additional two pages of standard terms and conditions... for more info, I invite you to read my article here on ProZ: http://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/554/1/Contracts-I:-Would-you-sign-this?
| | | | Peter Manda (X)
Local time: 14:37
German to English
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| contract formation | Jun 16, 2009 |
I wholeheartedly agree with Derek. A contract is formed. And failure to pay you under the circumstances is a material breach. You are entitled to payment, at least for partial performance. The problem your agency has is industry practice. Industry practice is to be flexible and to modify terms by hours and or days. Where an agency harasses you and compels partial delivery under duress, they are liable for the full amount and for any other damages you incur. This correspondence, for example, show... See more I wholeheartedly agree with Derek. A contract is formed. And failure to pay you under the circumstances is a material breach. You are entitled to payment, at least for partial performance. The problem your agency has is industry practice. Industry practice is to be flexible and to modify terms by hours and or days. Where an agency harasses you and compels partial delivery under duress, they are liable for the full amount and for any other damages you incur. This correspondence, for example, shows clearly that you are suffering emotional duress.
[Edited at 2009-06-16 23:46 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| Oh, and another "by the way"... | Jun 16, 2009 |
I just realized that my comments may read as if I thought the agency were right; I do not necessarily think that.
I do think you should be paid for the work you completed, especially if nothing to the contrary was mentioned in the contract, i.e., in the correspondence leading up to you actually doing the work (unless they made it perfectly clear that the whole project, i.e., all seven files had to be assigned elsewhere as a consequence of your late delivery).
Also, I te... See more I just realized that my comments may read as if I thought the agency were right; I do not necessarily think that.
I do think you should be paid for the work you completed, especially if nothing to the contrary was mentioned in the contract, i.e., in the correspondence leading up to you actually doing the work (unless they made it perfectly clear that the whole project, i.e., all seven files had to be assigned elsewhere as a consequence of your late delivery).
Also, I tend to see the things like Rod, who is offering some good advice here. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Peter Manda (X)
Local time: 14:37
German to English
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| whether to push it or not | Jun 16, 2009 |
It all depends on how you have been taken advantage of. If it's an isolated event, then of course let it go and use your time productively. But, if you feel deeply emotionally effected and if you were really taken advantage of, harassed, emotionally abused, ridiculed, or otherwise slighted, then I would say that you should pursue a claim, if for no other reason than your own sense of sanity.
| | | | | Yes, Viktoria, .... | Jun 16, 2009 |
ViktoriaG wrote: Derek Gill Franßen wrote:
Contracts do not need to be in writing or expressly declared.
I was going to mention this as well, but I think it isn't really worth it. In theory, it makes sense, but in practice, it's a whole different story. How do you prove that said verbal contract exists? I would be really surprised if the client waved a tape recording in Rie's face... I have tried to have verbal contracts respected a few times - it never led anywhere. Generally, those who are aware that verbal contracts have the same value in court as written ones also know that the fact that such a contract exists is practically impossible to prove.
...I admit to a bit of pedantry here. I hope my answer to Rei cleared up what I meant when I wrote my comment. You are, of course, correct about the futility of enforcing verbal contracts.
Cheers!
| | | | Peter Manda (X)
Local time: 14:37
German to English
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| on proving verbal contracts | Jun 17, 2009 |
Well in this case, there really isn't a verbal contract. There is e-mail correspondence. And there is parol evidence. There is course of dealing. etc.
Courts aren't unwise. Having worked in the US in state and federal court, and having litigated in Germany and Japan, I can say with a measure of confidence that a court would likely side with the party taken advantage of.
You just have to be brave enough to vindicate your rights.
Good luck ...
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Peter (Dutz) Manda wrote: Well in this case, there really isn't a verbal contract. There is e-mail correspondence. And there is parol evidence. There is course of dealing. etc.
I agree that this most certainly was not a verbal contract, but (more or less) written albeit most likely electronic.
I was speaking generally and probably should have written "contracts do not have to be drawn up on paper or contain all of the details of the transaction" (like you mentioned, there are also industry standards).
Sorry for the minor derailment.
| | | | Peter Manda (X)
Local time: 14:37
German to English
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| derailments ... | Jun 17, 2009 |
no problem, Derek. I wish we could be friends ...
| | | | | Legal action | Jun 17, 2009 |
In any case, I believe nothing in this case justifies legal action. I have had a similar misadventure once (about $800) and through trying to recover the amount due, I learned that the emotional stress is not worth it. My sanity is worth much more than $800. In the end, I did get to recover the money, but I was lucky - the outsourcer happened to work for a client of mine, and that client of mine was being harassed by the outsourcer for early payment. My client gave the outsourcer in question a g... See more In any case, I believe nothing in this case justifies legal action. I have had a similar misadventure once (about $800) and through trying to recover the amount due, I learned that the emotional stress is not worth it. My sanity is worth much more than $800. In the end, I did get to recover the money, but I was lucky - the outsourcer happened to work for a client of mine, and that client of mine was being harassed by the outsourcer for early payment. My client gave the outsourcer in question a gentle nudge...
The frustration Rie feels at present may seem like a lot, but it is nothing compared to the anger s/he could eventually feel after pursuing this rather small debt, and possibly still not getting paid. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I understand | Jun 17, 2009 |
How frustrating this can be, especially since you have been working with this agency for three years. Maybe you thought you were developing a relationship with them over time, but for them you were just a name in their files.
I believe you are entitled to sue them. But as Viktoria said, are you willing to undergo a stressing process, potentially costly in comparison with the sum involved?
I work with the Japanese language as well and I get contacted by Chinese (and not... See more How frustrating this can be, especially since you have been working with this agency for three years. Maybe you thought you were developing a relationship with them over time, but for them you were just a name in their files.
I believe you are entitled to sue them. But as Viktoria said, are you willing to undergo a stressing process, potentially costly in comparison with the sum involved?
I work with the Japanese language as well and I get contacted by Chinese (and not only Chinese) agencies all the time, who offer ridiculous rates (at least, ridiculous for someone who lives in OZ). Some of them offer to pay even less for me to translate into a language which is not your native language. I refuse to lower my rate, and I refuse to translate into something else than French (but this is a different issue).
They said they would not offer you jobs in the future. Fine! I actually think you are the one who should not accept jobs from such agencies in the future. As Derek said, 120 USD for 6 files seems very little to me. Especially when it takes you almost 3 days to complete the work! Can you afford to work for 40 USD a day? Or even 60 USD, when you work in Germany? I don't think so. I think it may be wiser to invest this time in finding agencies and direct clients who will pay what your work is really worth. Maybe it is a good opportunity after all.
Take a deep breath, drink a nice glass of Riesling, and forget about them ! ▲ Collapse
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Stuart Dowell
Poland
Local time: 20:37
Member (2007)
Polish to English
+ ...
| Just move on | Jun 17, 2009 |
Take the hit, learn the lesson and move on.
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 20:37
French to German
+ ...
| No logic at all | Jun 17, 2009 |
Rod Walters wrote:
The logic of involving China in translation between English and Japanese has never been obvious to me, and the implications of this are certainly worth pondering for any translator who wants to enjoy their life.
Same here, and I mean this for any combination not involving Chinese, by the way!
@Rie: you delivered them 6 files out of 7, they were warned about the fact you could not possibly do the 7th file - they have to pay you for the work done! If they don't, this leaves you with the option of the BB.
Laurent K.
[Edited at 2009-06-17 08:43 GMT]
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