French term
France
Excellence, dedication, professionalism
Native in: French 
Works in: English to French, French to English
Madame 'X' veuve 'Y'
''Madame Marie DUPONT veuve SCHMITT venant aux droits de Monsieur Paul SCHMITT...''
Would you simply translate ''...DUPONT widow SCHMITT...?''
| 4 +6 | Mrs Y, widowed (née X) |
Tony M
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| 4 | Mrs Marie Schmitt, née Dupont [...] Mr Paul Schmitt, deceased |
Conor McAuley
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Apr 1, 2023 13:04: Yvonne Gallagher changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"
PRO (3): Conor McAuley, Charles R., Mpoma
Non-PRO (3): Tony M, AllegroTrans, Yvonne Gallagher
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Proposed translations
Mrs Y, widowed (née X)
I think my suggestion above would be an understandable rendering at least for most everyday purposes. Remember, in Britain at least, widows don't usually revert to their maiden names; hence she will still be known as Mrs Y, and no reference is usually made to the fact she is widowed.
If for some reason it needed to be spelled out, one might write 'widow of Fred Y' — but that still means you have to fit the 'maiden name' in there somehow.
| agree |
AllegroTrans
: or "Mrs. Y, née X, a widow"
9 mins
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Thanks, C! Yes, that would be neater.
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writeaway
1 hr
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Thanks, W/A!
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Adrian MM.
: https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-patents/426...
4 hrs
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Thanks, Adrian!
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Mpoma
: I put "Mrs Y (widowed) née X". I tend to think that the French insistence on remembering a woman's maiden name implies that this is perceived as an inalienable part of her identity. The fact that "X" comes before "Y" in French seems fairly significant.
4 hrs
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Thanks, Mpoma! Yes, indeed: it is HER name, and not her 'nom d'usage'; I believe I'm right in saying that after divorce, a woman has to get her ex-husband's permission to carry on using his suname.
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abe(L)solano
1 day 19 hrs
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Thanks, Abe!
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Jennifer White
: This has come up before, a few times if I remember correctly.
1 day 21 hrs
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Thanks, Jennifer!
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France
Excellence, Expertise & Experience
Native in: English (Variants: Wales / Welsh, UK, Scottish, Irish, British)
Works in: French to English, English
Mrs Marie Schmitt, née Dupont [...] Mr Paul Schmitt, deceased
If you want to emphasise the fact that Mr Schmitt is no longer with us and that Mrs Schmitt is a widow, then you can put "deceased" after his name.
It's more elegant and neater like this, I would argue.
Any children of the couple's would have been "born as" Schmitts, or as Schmitt Duponts, so it's obvious that this Mrs Schmitt is a widow and not a daughter.
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Note added at 4 days (2023-04-06 06:29:23 GMT)
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"Mr X, deceased" appears to be much more idiomatic and much more common usage than "Mrs Y, widowed" (for whatever reason, sexist or otherwise), and the former also strikes me as much more likely to be used in a legal document than the latter, and more natural.
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Note added at 4 days (2023-04-06 06:36:04 GMT)
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Or "born as" Dupont Schmitts, to be exhaustive and to avoid any further false accusations from sensitive souls...
Discussion
It's like vous/tu (and at what time should you start saying "Bonsoir" and not "Bonjour", what a minefield!).
In the circles I mix in, 25 is very young and people are coupling up and having children later and later.
With the caveats that I'm not a woman and that these things are defined by personal outlook, age, class and the like.
What I take from the main issue as regards this question is that the legal context dictates that the maiden/unmarried name is necessarily used in French, whereas the same is not the case in English, and you could make an argument for making the wording much longer and more explicit about the two main points (the "maiden" surname and the surname of the husband who has passed away).
Note, for example, that in a primary school, the kids will call their teacher 'Miss' in EN, but 'Madame' in FR.
A gentleman would address a youngish woman as 'Madame' as a delicate way of hinting that he assumes she is married and so is not going to "hit on her". Once a woman reaches a certain age, she might find 'Madame' more polite, and using 'Mademoiselle' would be almost impolite — suggesting she's bene left on the shelf and ought to be married by now, an "ageing spinster". Notice here the custom of the catherinettes — girls who are still not married by the age of 25 are to some extent mocked as being "left on the shelf".
It is against this cultural background that a careful judgement needs to be made as to which term of address to use.
What title they would use formally is a different issue.
(See And Just Like That and the Ma'am conversation for why a woman wouldn't want to be addressed as Ma'am or Madame.)
The legal context means that a mistake is unlikely, but I'm sure that some paralegal, at some point, has used a "remarried name" in error, given the other silly mistakes they make.
Mademoiselle has been forbidden by bureaucrats now, but previously, would a widow have reverted to Mademoiselle when her husband died?
Its use depends more on age than on marital status...
Thanks! I always do and I did this time also, but somehow did not find the entry from your link.
I had entered 'veuve' only, unsure of the generic term to put before and behind it. But X and Y make complete sense! :))
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/675...