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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

fumiers

English translation:

organic manures/fertilizer

Added to glossary by Drmanu49
Jun 9, 2020 17:13
3 yrs ago
57 viewers *
French term

fumiers

French to English Science Wine / Oenology / Viticulture Adventure Park
This text is about a vineyard:

Leur volonté de développement durable les incite à pratiquer une agriculture raisonnée, utilisant uniquement des fumures organiques (dont les ***fumiers*** issus de pailles d’orge produites sur les terres du domaine) en utilisant le moins possible de produits phytosanitaires

I'm a city girl, so this may seem like a very dumb question to some of you, but here goes. Is "fumiers" used here to mean "manure" in the traditional sense, i.e. farm animal poop, as in the animal eats the barley straw and then poops it out, or is it "green manure," i.e.mulch? Or something completely different?
Proposed translations (English)
4 +3 organic manures/fertilizer
4 (barley-straw) mulch
References
Mulch
Change log

Jul 26, 2020 21:40: Drmanu49 Created KOG entry

Discussion

Wolf Draeger Jun 15, 2020:
OK The translation is in good hands, so I'm sure it will read well. And I'm happy to admit I misunderstood the ST (though not altogether without reason).
tatyana000 (asker) Jun 15, 2020:
#3 It's definitely not 1 and most likely 3, but I don't want to ask my client any more poo-related questions ;-) I awarded the points to the perhaps not ideal answer because what I really wanted to know was whether I could use "mulch" in my translation, or whether that would be wrong because it was "real" manure. Agreed that the source text isn't well written, but hopefully the English translation will read a lot better!
Wolf Draeger Jun 15, 2020:
Can you be more precise? Is the barley grown specifically to obtain barley straw to mix in with manure? Not likely. Is the barley straw mixed in with manure instead of being thrown away? Possibly. Is the barley straw used as animal bedding, after which it's de facto part of the resulting manure since you can't separate the excrement from the straw? Likely.

Which is it? In all three cases the chosen answer is wrong, with all due respect. And the FR wording is still clumsy and confusing (as this discussion and the answers show).

I know I'm being nitpicky and we all have better things to do, but after spending so much time on this question, I'd like some clarity.
tatyana000 (asker) Jun 15, 2020:
For the record: It's farmland manure with barley grass straw mixed in, as described by Yvonne and others.
Wolf Draeger Jun 15, 2020:
@Asker Maybe it's a moot point now the question's closed, but what precisely did your client confirm? Is this farmyard manure after all (as Yvonne in fact suggested early on in the discussion)? Manure is organic by definition, while organic fertilizer is a broader category, and green manure is not manure at all. So what exactly are we talking about here?
tatyana000 (asker) Jun 15, 2020:
The client has just confirmed -- there is indeed poo in it!
ph-b (X) Jun 13, 2020:
Wolf, You wrote: "Manure from barley straw" doesn't make sense. Nothing special about barley straw and it's not used specifically to make manure or even compost."
Doesn't make sense? Nothing special about barley straw? Not used specifically to make manure? Mmh.. Let's get back to the source text, shall we?
...des fumures organiques (dont [among which, from which] les fumiers[manure(s)] issus de [produced/coming from] pailles d’orge [barley straw]...
Wolf, as Yvonne herself put it: "Barley straw could also be used as bedding, which the animals could "poop" on and could then be forked out and put into a heap to break down as manure."
Yvonne Gallagher Jun 13, 2020:
@ tatyana000 Yes! This is one for the client. You haven't said how many animals they have, if they have a "farmyard" and whether there is access to dung or not. But one thing is certain, this is NOT "green manure". I believe barley straw is more commonly used as a mulch in vineyards but it's possible, as I said, that it's used as animal bedding and then rotted down to manure. And I am quite expert in all these techniques as I have been growing organically myself for over 30 years now (and surrounded by farms where I live). I have grown oats to get straw as a mulch for my strawberries (guess why they are called that?) allowing the birds to eat the grains as I don't have threshing/milling facilities.
tatyana000 (asker) Jun 13, 2020:
This discussion is absolutely fascinating! Thank you, everyone, for your input! I've learned so much but I'm still on the fence. I think I'll have to ask the client whether there's real poop in the "fumier" and get back to you.
Wolf Draeger Jun 11, 2020:
Farmyard manure? @ph-b, I think we're speaking past each other here, since we clearly agree that understanding the context and topic is crucial. You're essentially adding a third suggestion to the two offered so far, i.e. farmyard manure.

- "Manure from barley straw" doesn't make sense. Nothing special about barley straw and it's not used specifically to make manure or even compost. But it is used to make mulch.
- "Farmyard manure containing barley straw" does make sense. Maybe a little pointless, but plausible. Perhaps the owner is boasting about how self-sufficient the whole operation is (we grow our own bedding).

https://www.agrifarming.in/farmyard-manure-preparation-metho...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manure
https://ag.umass.edu/crops-dairy-livestock-equine/fact-sheet...
ph-b (X) Jun 11, 2020:
Wolf, "you have to consider how a word is used and what it means in context". Indeed. I have. Have you? What is also useful is first-hand experience of the subject. Can you tell manure from mulch? Can you describe the use of manure in a garden or in a field and how it differs from the use of mulch? And why?

And as far as translation (as opposed to wine-making technique) is concerned, there is a perfectly good word for "mulch" in French. The author must have known it, but chose not to use it. Are we free to change the source text or what the author wrote? I should think not. If you think there is a mistake in the source text, flag it, but you may not change the source text without telling your client.

What the text says is that they use manures that come from barley straw (fumiers issus de pailles d’orge) used as cattle litter and so got mixed with animal excrement.
Drmanu49 Jun 10, 2020:
Fumier makes perfect sense here just as manure is used to fertilize vineyards. Just check the video I gave a link to earlier. Very easy to confirm.
Wolf Draeger Jun 10, 2020:
Dictionaries Are all very well—I have several, I love them dearly and I use them all the time—but you have to consider how a word is used and what it means in its context. The dictionary definition of fumiers=animal manure just doesn't make sense here, so we must find and apply a meaning that does.
ph-b (X) Jun 10, 2020:
About "manures" The text clearly says fumiers ("manures"), i.e. mélange de litières et d'excréments des animaux (https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/fumier) or "solid waste from animals, especially horses, that is spread on the land" (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/fr/dictionnaire/anglais/man... This has nothing to do with "mulch" (R&C : mulch or paillis, as in Mince couche de paille brisée, ou d'autres débris végétaux, épandue comme litière à la surface du sol... - CNRTL) in which there is no animal element.
Wolf Draeger Jun 10, 2020:
Mulch v. compost A couple of interesting links to back up Yvonne's answer:
https://agroecology.berkeley.edu/resources/compost-benefit v...
https://s3.amazonaws.com/soilquality-production/fact_sheets/...
Wolf Draeger Jun 10, 2020:
@Asker Sorry, I didn't mean to imply your first guess was illogical, only that barley straw is unlikely to be used as fodder, and even if it is, the resulting dung won't be any different or "greener" than dung from hay, so I very much doubt fumiers is manure in this case.
Yvonne Gallagher Jun 10, 2020:
@ Drmanu49 Yes, I've been in quite a few vineyards, on 3 continents in fact, though I admit not in winter or spring, usually summer or harvest time in autumn. Note that I didn't disagree with you that it MIGHT be manure but it is definitely NOT "green manure" (such as mustard, or phacelia). My initial comment here to Asker was in response to her comment about feeding barley straw to the animals. AND barley straw IS most definitely used as a mulch
Drmanu49 Jun 10, 2020:
And manure is well dissolved in the ground by the time you would come for vendanges. Since it is used in late winter or early spring.
Drmanu49 Jun 10, 2020:
Yvonne, I guess you have not been on vineyards often. check this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3OVlSs2onw
Yvonne Gallagher Jun 10, 2020:
@ Asker Barley grains can be fed to animals and sometimes barley straw can be used as forage when mixed with other fodder (as it would definitely not be enough on its own). Barley straw could also be used as bedding, which the animals could "poop" on and could then be forked out and put into a heap to break down as manure. BUT, and it's a big BUT, this is for use in a vineyard where grapes are picked by hand so I doubt very much that anyone wants to wade through manure to do the vindange! I am almost certain that this barley straw is intended as a mulch to stop erosion and run-off in the vineyard (oh and I have peronal experience of doing 3 vindanges in france. No manure in sight but yes to mulches)
tatyana000 (asker) Jun 10, 2020:
@Wolf Draeger They could in theory feed the barley straw to livestock in this specific instance because they also run a children's farm. Hence my first guess.
Wolf Draeger Jun 9, 2020:
Mulch/compost Your second guess is right, it's barley straw used as mulch or compost. Compost is a key part of organic or biodynamic viticulture, though I'm not sure barley straw has any special properties, most likely it's used simply because it's there.

As an aside, I doubt feed has much to do with the "quality" of manure even if that could be measured, and it's surely implausible to feed livestock a single grain (not straw), so that also rules out manure in this case (most vinegrowers probably purchase their manure since they won't have the livestock to produce it themselves, apart perhaps from some horses).

Proposed translations

+3
1 min
Selected

organic manures/fertilizer

Organic Manures - BigHaat
www.bighaat.com › pages › organic...
Traduire cette page
Organic Manures 1. What are organic manures? Organic manures are natural products used by farmers to provide food (plant nutrients) for the crop plants.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 41 minutes (2020-06-09 17:55:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Green manures / fertilizer also as suggested by Nicky.
www.rhs.org.uk › advice › profile
Traduire cette page
Green manures are fast-growing plants sown to cover bare soil. Often used in the vegetable garden, their foliage smothers weeds and their roots prevent soil ...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 jour 6 heures (2020-06-10 23:30:33 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Understanding Vineyard Soils
books.google.fr › books
- Traduire cette page
Farm animal manures must be composted or be followed by at least two green ... The manure most commonly used in vineyards is poultry manure, followed by ...
Robert White - 2009 - ‎Technology & Engineering
Peer comment(s):
agree Barbara Cochran, MFA
1 min
Thank you.
agree Nicky Over : Yes, but possibly **green** manure/fertiliser rather than organic? (**le moins possible** de produits phytosanitaires, not none at all.)
12 mins
OK for green; Thank you.
agree Reuben Wright : Also agree with Nicky's nuance of "green" over "organic".
1 hr
Thank you.
agree Chris Milne (X)
13 hrs
Thank you.
disagree Yvonne Gallagher : It says barley straw which is NOT a green manure, which is a different process and obviously something you are not familiar with
16 hrs
Barley straw is mixed with animal dung or other to make "fumier". It is typically used in dairy farms for example. And once again the issue here is green fertilizer, nothing to do with erosion.// 4 seasons working with winegrowers.
neutral ph-b (X) : Would agree with "manures" only. "Organic" refers to fumures.
23 hrs
OK, thank you.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you!"
7 hrs

(barley-straw) mulch

It's a mulch, NOT a manure, NOT a compost and NOT even a green manure which are particular specific plants such as alfafa or phecelia grown to be dug back into the ground. See here:https://www.fruithillfarm.com/info/2017/01/what-are-green-ma...


This is barley straw grown specifically to be used as a mulch in this case. And quite commonly used in vineyards to revent erosion. it is NOT given as a feed to animals (so obviously not pooped to beconme manure)

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004896971...

https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2017EGUGA..19....9C/abstra...
Peer comment(s):
disagree Drmanu49 : Fumier is NOT mulch that would be paillis or engrais. Barley straw is mixed with cow dung or other to act as fertilizer. It is never used alone as fertilizer. Erosion is not the issue here.
8 hrs
I disagree with your interpretation. It says barley straw
agree Wolf Draeger : Also agree with your distinction between mulch & compost, I learned something new!
10 hrs
Many thanks:-) Yes, there is a big difference. I've been learning about this for years
agree Sonia Geerlings
11 hrs
Many thanks:-)
disagree ph-b (X) : Neither mulch nor compost. The text says quite clearly that fumiers. These include animal elements, which "mulch" does not./PS. Read: ...that fumiers are used./Y., kindly read again.
16 hrs
The FACT is is that "barley straw" on its own is NOT manure and is used far more often as a mulch in these situations. To become manure it has to be mixed with dung. And you don't disagree with "green manure"??/Nope.
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

1 day 2 hrs
Reference:

Mulch

From the Oxford Companion to Wine, 4th ed.:

“mulch, materials put on the vineyard soil surface to assist vine growth. Mulch is useful because it keeps soil damp, stops it getting too hot, and hinders the growth of weeds. They are generally composed of organic matter, providing nutrients for the vine's growth as the mulch decomposes. Organic mulches have a desirable effect on soil health, by increasing microbial populations and diversity. [...]
Animal manure and straw were common mulches of the past but in some modern vineyards these have been replaced with thin plastic film. [...]”

So, you can use barley straw and animal manure together to make mulch, but I don't see how the straw itself can be considered manure, and it still seems unlikely to me that the FR means dung from animals that are fed barley straw (unless maybe the animals in question are donkeys, but then you're touting the lifegiving properties of donkey doo-doo, not barley straw...seriously?).
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Yvonne Gallagher
3 hrs
disagree ph-b (X) : This is a translation question, not one about wine-making. The source text uses the word fumier(s) and that is what you have to translate. If you think there is a mistake, flag it but don't change the source text when translating it.
11 hrs
Something went wrong...
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