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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

refacturé à l\'euro l\'euro

English translation:

billed/invoiced at cost

Added to glossary by AllegroTrans
Dec 7, 2022 17:29
1 yr ago
40 viewers *
French term

refacturé à l'euro l'euro

French to English Law/Patents Finance (general) Vehicle leasing contract
From a car fleet leasing contract, regarding a facility through which the hirer can swap the car for one of another make for up to 40 days in each year of the contract.

"Re-billed Euro for Euro" makes no snese to me. Any takers?


Dans l'hypothèse où le Locataire souhaite modifier ponctuellement la catégorie du Véhicule Car Swap, le Loueur consent à modifier temporairement la catégorie définie.

Le Locataire reconnaît être redevable du coût engendré par la surcatégorie demandée.

Ce coût sera refacturé à l'euro l'euro par le Loueur.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +2 invoiced at cost
4 +2 rebilled exactly to the Euro -> for exactly the same amount in Euros
5 -1 invoiced as a pass-through cost
3 -2 without any penalty fee
3 -2 Invoiced Cost
References
Without any markup

Discussion

Conor McAuley Dec 8, 2022:
Actually, I've changed my mind on this one.

I think a fairly literal translation that keeps the translator out of any trouble is possible.

Maybe even go for a plain English formulation for the second sentence too – "Any such cost/charge would be passed on...".
Mpoma Dec 8, 2022:
@Steve I'm not entirely sure I agree with you there. Any messing about with contracts can lead to extra "administrative" charges in this sort of context. Contrary to what Tony asserts, these are often referred to as "penalties".

But the full explanation would be "for no charge, other than the additional cost intrinsic to the price tables". Personally I'm not (at all!) convinced that the French explicitly says this. I think it's bad drafting and could very easily be picked apart by lawyers in the event of a dispute.

Which in turn poses the slightly thorny question of what the translator's responsibility is in such a case. I take the view that we are not jurists but paid to translate what jurists write. So I think my solution works OK but I'd definitely add a note for the client on this one.
Steve Robbie Dec 8, 2022:
In English you would not need to say this at all An English contract - I suspect - would simply say that the difference in fees is billed to the lessee. You would not need to say explicitly that no surcharge (or discount) is applied. On the contrary, if you did want to add a surcharge, then you would have to say so explicitly. That's what makes this phrase seem so odd to an Anglophone reader.
Conor McAuley Dec 7, 2022:
Well James, exactly!

Everything needs to be spelled out in a contract, and what is being spelled out here is that the lessee will pay the extra for the superior category of car (normal, but needs to be said), but that no admin fees or nasty and unwarranted extra charges will be levied.
Bourth Dec 7, 2022:
Thanks to ph-b for resuscitating me I had no recollection of that earlier post and was about to suggest the same thing again, pointing out there is no shortage of 'pound-for-pound', 'dollar-for-dollar', in similar situations on the Ouèbbhe. In this case, if the fee for the original car was x units and the replacement car is x+y (= z) units, then z units will be charged (x+y for x+y, or if you want a unitary (dollar, say) value, (x+y) / z for (x+y) / z ).
Daryo Dec 7, 2022:
It's got nothing to do with standard vs substandard vs premium rates.

The fact that this "cost" is the cost of some kind of "upgrade" is secondary - a red herring.

The same "à l'euro l'euro" method of invoicing would've been applied to any cost that is simply passed on the client as it is.

"refacturé à l'euro l'euro" is about charging clients for some costs exactly the amount paid, without adding any fees of any kind - sort of "forwarding the invoice" exactly "as-is".

There is a very specific term for this way of invoicing costs, (it was a past Kudoz question) but I can't remember it right now.
James A. Walsh Dec 7, 2022:
@Conor - in other words: "standard rates apply" I strongly feel this is the intended meaning here, and the equivalent term widely used in business English is "standard rates apply"
Let's face it, who hasn't heard "standard rates apply" in super-fast T&Cs for whatever product you might hear advertised on TV or radio...
Anastasia Kalantzi Dec 7, 2022:
facturation à l'euro près https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/facturation-à-leuro-...
Emmanuella Dec 7, 2022:
https://www.compta-online.com/refacturation-avec-marge-t3595...
Conor McAuley Dec 7, 2022:
Billed at the normal price/rate for the superior category in question.

I.e. no extra charge for the work involved.

The words "superior" and "category" may not be a good fit.
philgoddard Dec 7, 2022:
Allegro ph-b has linked to the previous question - did you see it? Bourth suggests 'without a handling charge', which seems perfectly good to me.

And 'billed at cost' is ambiguous: it could mean that the lessor is charging what it costs them, which is presumably much less.
AllegroTrans (asker) Dec 7, 2022:
@ Phil Yessir, glossary checked and not content with anything found. Something being billed "Euro for Euro" makes little sense to me.

Maybe "billed at cost" is what we would be more likely to say in Unglish
Thomas T. Frost Dec 7, 2022:
Au franc le franc It's an idiomatic expression, originally with 'franc':
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/636...
https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/franc
https://fr.lettres.langue.francaise.narkive.com/sL1lDH1T/au-...
It sounds better with 'franc' than 'euro', but c'est la vie.
'Euro for euro'.
philgoddard Dec 7, 2022:
Allegro Are you checking the glossary before you post questions? This is the second duplicated one today.
I do agree with you that "euro for euro" sounds odd and isn't clear. "With no penalty" would be better in my opinion.
ph-b (X) Dec 7, 2022:
Bourth, in a previous life https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/finance-general...
Tony M Dec 7, 2022:
@ Phil I really don't think so; it's much simpler than that, just the same expression we use in EN: "pound-for-pound" etc.
philgoddard Dec 7, 2022:
Could it mean "with no penalty"? In other words, they pay a higher charge, but there's no fee for the change. I don't think it's about markups.
Tony M Dec 7, 2022:
@ Asker I think you'll usually find this simply means 'at face value', i.e. without any mark-up.
Not so sure about 're-billed' — probably more like 'billed onward' or something like that.

Proposed translations

+2
17 hrs
Selected

invoiced at cost

This is what it means, i.e. to not add any markup. We don't know how the cost is determined in this case, but if the company is an intermediary between the end client and a separate car hire company, it would make sense. It is also possible that the source does not use this expression correctly. If the company is the car hire company and not an intermediary, it would be more difficult to define the cost.
Reference:

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/cost

https://www.studocu.com/fr/document/universite-jean-moulin-lyon-iii/informatique-3/division-3-la-base-d-imposition-de-la-tva/15314898

Peer comment(s):
agree Tony M
3 hrs
Thanks, Tony
neutral Mpoma : You would never use this expression in T&Cs which are directed at a retail customer. This sort of expression is strictly for B2B commercial/legalistic documents / No, when one business is a consumer this can still be retail.
7 hrs
The Asker said it's from a car fleet leasing contract. That's not retail but B2B./Definition of retail: 'the sale of goods individually or in small quantities to consumers' (i.e. not a business).
agree Daryo : that would also work fine // Agent or no makes little difference: normally, if you keep changing your mind the supplier would charge you some kind of "admin fee" for being a pain in the neck, even when they sell own goods / services.
5 days
Thanks
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+2
1 hr

rebilled exactly to the Euro -> for exactly the same amount in Euros

Maybe re.invoiced, but neither billed onwards, nor rebilled without any mark-up or -*down*.

Otherwise, the linguee 'translations' are questionable-to-unusable.
Example sentence:

You receive a bill from your supplier for $1100 (incl GST). You raise an invoice to your customer for $1100 (incl GST). The net effect is that you're raising an invoice for exactly the same amount (including GST) as you paid to your supplier

You might also refer to billable expenses as *oncharging, onbilling, recharging*, reimbursables, or pass(-)on costs.

Reference:

http://support.standardledger.co/knowledge/re-billing-customers-...-and-gst

http://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/traduction/facturation+à+l'euro+l'euro.html

Peer comment(s):
agree FPC
12 mins
agree Anastasia Kalantzi : Yes, withheld taxes will be invoiced at cost.
3 hrs
neutral James A. Walsh : I really don't think we would bother with going to the extent of spelling it out so painstakingly in English, like EVER! (your suggestions explains it well though!)
3 hrs
neutral Daryo : yes, that's the right explanation, but there is a specific term for this.
3 hrs
neutral Steve Robbie : n.b. nothing is "re-" billed here. The difference in fees caused by the temporary upgrade is billed to the lessee without discount or surcharge.
15 hrs
neutral Mpoma : Whoops! Somehow you've managed to edit this answer. Amazing.
1 day 21 mins
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-2
13 hrs

without any penalty fee

With apologies to Phil who came up with this solution (but didn't put in an answer!).

The expression has to be one which you, a potential retail punter, would actually see in T&Cs, and the meaning of which would be easy to understand.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Tony M : This is not to be regarded as any form of 'penalty' (suggests some kind of punishment) — it is simply the absence of any kind of 'mark-up', added for whatever reason.
7 hrs
I disagree. "Penalty" is *exactly* what you would find in this context in T&Cs for retail customers of this kind.
neutral philgoddard : I didn't post an answer because this is a duplicated question and I feel it was adequately explained last time. But penalty doesn't imply punishment, and markup, ie profit margin, is the wrong word..
9 hrs
Quite so. Are you referring to the "euro for euro" answer by Bourth or sthg else? It seems the wrong answer was chosen that time. And I can't see any explanation there along the lines of your "penalty" solution.
disagree Daryo : the "amount that wasn't added" could be a lot of things, but it would be a "penalty fee" maybe once in a blue moon. Usually it would be some kind of "charge/commission/fee" for taking the trouble to pay some cost on s.o. else's behalf. CL5++ about that.
4 days
Something went wrong...
-2
15 hrs

Invoiced Cost

Invoiced Cost is the actual cost, paid to the manufacturer or distributor by end-customer. Typically it includes tax, shipping fees and other additional payments, that are required to deliver goods from merchant to buyer.
https://mirasvit.com/knowledge-base/magento-2-invoiced-cost-...
Invoiced Cost means that price at which LICENSOR or its Affiliate(s) purchase a Product in finished form from independent third parties; provided however that "invoiced cost" shall not exceed LICENSOR's then current Fully Absorbed Cost. In the event that the price at which LICENSOR purchases a Product in finished form from an independent third party is more than LICENSOR's then current Fully Absorbed Cost, LICENSOR shall have the right to discontinue supply of such Product for LICENSEE, subject to LICENSOR's obligation to continue supply of such Product for LICENSEE for a reasonable period of time to allow LICENSEE to qualify a manufacturing facility to manufacture such Product. If LICENSOR's ability to supply LICENSEE's requirements of a Product should be impaired for any reason, including Force Majeure, LICENSOR shall promptly provide written notice to LICENSEE of this fact and the parties shall meet in good faith to discuss an appropriate solution.
https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/invoiced-cost
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invoice_price

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Note added at 18 ώρες (2022-12-08 12:24:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

*towards the Asker: I think by using both expressions ''Invoiced cost'' or ''Invoiced at cost'' one means to say pretty much the same thing.
Note from asker:
Thanks, this was also my inclination although I would say "invoiced/bille AT cost"
Peer comment(s):
disagree Tony M : The 'at' is essential here, as otherwise, it means 'a cost that is invoiced', which is quite different from the meaning required here! / In EN, the choice and position of prepositions is often crucial.
5 hrs
Maybe, this is the way I posted it a while before in many of my answers, still I wasn't so sure about the preposition's addin/Yes, it is curcial indeed, but not in all cases though.
disagree Daryo : No way: this "invoiced cost" could include all sort of addition to the initial cost, exactly the opposite of "facturé à l'euro l'euro"
5 days
Something went wrong...
-1
12 hrs

invoiced as a pass-through cost

CL5 that it's the right term, but there might be also other ways of saying the same.

Pass-Through Cost means a cost to which no element of overhead, administrative expense, or profit is added, such that the specific amount of such cost is included without modification in the calculations or reports prepared in implementing this Agreement.

https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/pass-through-cost


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 hrs (2022-12-08 05:53:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

IOW the cost of the "upgrade" will be invoiced as a pass-through cost
 (= exactly as it is)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 hrs (2022-12-08 06:06:32 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The reason for mentioning explicitly "refacturé à l'euro l'euro" is that in a commercial contract there is a presumption that every service has to be paid for - nothing is for free. IOW in absence of "refacturé à l'euro l'euro" some kind of "admin fee" could be charged by default.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 days (2022-12-13 03:16:39 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"a car fleet leasing contract" is a B2B contract.

Target audience:
the "client" here is a business, presumably with its own legal department, IOW they ought to know what is a "pass-through cost". It's not meant for Joe public renting one car for the weekend.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 days (2022-12-13 04:36:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Let's try an illustration.

You reserved a hotel thought a travel agency.

The hotel costs 1,000 and the agency charges you 20% on top - call it commission or fee or service charge or whatever.

You change your mind and want an upgrade. The hotel costs now 1,500.

By default, the agency would also charge you 20% on the additional 500. They are a business, they are not presumed to do anything for free.

IOW on its way from IN to OUT (of the travel agency accounts) the 500 cost of upgrade gets increased to 600 (500 + 20%)

What this contract says is the same as: for the upgrade the client will be charged by the agency exactly what agency has to pay to the hotel.

IOW this 500 cost will just "pass-through" the accounts of the travel agency, walk in and then walk out unchanged.

So "pass-through" does make perfect sense.

Never mind that www.lawinsider.com being the biggest "reference library" of standard clauses you can find, maintained by lawyers for lawyers, you won't find there some fantasist one-off terms.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 days (2022-12-13 12:14:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Nota Bene: ... a collection of standard clauses ...
+
If there is any difference between the definition given for this term and the way "(re)facturé à l'euro l'euro" is used in the ST, it's hiding itself pretty well.
Note from asker:
Sorry but I don't think anyone reading this in a contract would know what it means; passed through...where?
Peer comment(s):
disagree Mpoma : Every single (potential) customer would then have no idea what these words meant and would have to ask. We need to find an expression which is actually used. The register is wrong and the meaning baffling.
1 hr
It did also sound weird to me too the first time I stumbled on it in a text - until I checked its exact meaning. Nothing prevents you from doing the same.
neutral Steve Robbie : Mpoma is right - wrong register - but it's the wrong translation in any case. This is not about a third-party expense that is being "passed through".
4 hrs
"wrong register" used by www.lawinsider.com ? Seriously? I was under the apparently wrong impression that it's THE site for lawyers by lawyers in USA? What next, you're going to argue with Hansard?
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Reference comments

55 mins
Reference:

Without any markup

URL 1:
« CONDITIONS A RESPECTER POUR LA NON TAXATION DES DEBOURS. »
« Enfin il doit être remboursé par le commerçant « au franc le franc » de ses frais (pas de marge), c’est-à-dire pour la somme exacte qu’il a avancée. »

URL 2:
« Le monopole communal se résumait à fournir aux entreprises ayant pignon sur rue le personnel de portage, les cercueils nus et les corbillards. Ces entreprises devaient revendre ces prestations aux familles « en tiers » c’est à dire au franc le franc. Elles ne pouvaient donc faire leur marge que sur les accessoires, les formalités et les honoraires. »
Reference:

https://www.studocu.com/fr/document/universite-jean-moulin-lyon-iii/informatique-3/division-3-la-base-d-imposition-de-la-tva/15314898

https://avocats-afac.org/doc/c13_actes.pdf

Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Tony M : Yes, it's a standard practice and not an expression that can be messed with.
19 mins
Thanks
neutral philgoddard : Of course there's a markup. They're not leasing vehicles at cost. It means a fee, penalty, service charge, whatever you want to call it.
1 hr
The meaning of the expression is 'invoiced at cost/without markup'. Maybe it is not used correctly in the source, but this is a reference comment, not an answer.
agree Daryo : in this case there is no mark-up of any kind - that's the whole point of asking to be reimbursed "au franc le franc" / "à l'euro l'euro"!
4 hrs
Thanks
agree Andrew Bramhall
5 hrs
Thanks
disagree Mpoma : This doesn't work because 1) of Phil's point and 2) this is a document for retail purposes. You don't say to customers "without ripping you off, honest". You just say something simple. / You have put an answer here yourself!
12 hrs
'Markup' does not mean 'rip-off'. And this is a reference comment, not an answer. Please don't treat it as the latter./It's from a car fleet leasing contract. That's not retail.
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