This site uses cookies. Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site, while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used. For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
Cookie settings
Growing until opening 100 new outlets in 10 years
autarchic

Glossary entry

English term or phrase:

is of/on the order of

English answer:

of the order of (UK English); either (US English)

Added to glossary by Jack Doughty
Sep 28, 2006 11:56
17 yrs ago
11 viewers *
English term

is of/on the order of

English Science Science (general) scientific writing
Dear native speakers!
Could you explain the difference, if any, between "to be OF the order of" and " to be ON the order of"?

Example from Google:
The coefficient of friction is ON the order of 10, whereas that for rocks is OF the order of 0.5.
Responses
2 +8 of the order of
5 +2 no difference
4 +1 'of', 'on', or 'in' - it's just better to use the same preposiiton in both cases
4 to the order of OR of the order of
4 OF the order is more precise

Discussion

David Moore (X) Sep 29, 2006:
n excellent invention; but they must be treated with caution. Not everyone has the time to read all through a dictionary site quoted as a reference - I certainly don't, but I also try to read them carefully, and IF I ever quote them, I do like to specify.
David Moore (X) Sep 29, 2006:
Brie and Alison have both thrown references out without specifying exactly WHERE their claims are supported by them; this makes it well-nigh impossible for anyone who wants to find out the truth, where it lies. As far as I am concerned, dictionaries are a
David Moore (X) Sep 29, 2006:
ian, "ON" the order of is wrong (unless it means "by order of somebody") in ANY context. As far as the scientists are concerned, they should "stick to their last". OK, I know there must be an interface, but I wish it wouldn't keep dragging in bad grammar!
David Moore (X) Sep 29, 2006:
@ David Syrett: I'm not humbled - just irritated that we should be arguing over something like this on the basis of dictionary entries, when these have probably been added by some MSc who can't even write the language proper. Quite clearly, to the grammar
Michael Barnett Sep 29, 2006:
Without commenting on "of" or "on", if the term is used to mean "approximately" then the coefficient of friction is 20 times that of rock, but if one is talking of "orders of magnitude" then the coefficient is 3,164,556,962 times that of rock.
David Sirett Sep 28, 2006:
So, given that, there is no difference and, as already stated, usage should be consistent in a given text.
David Sirett Sep 28, 2006:
As an ENS (UK) I would never have conceived of using anything other than "of the order of", and cannot remember ever seeing "in" or "on" in this context. So I'm all the more humbled to see that SOED gives all three and Chambers "in" and "of".
Vitaly Kisin Sep 28, 2006:
Not a native speaker but come accross it all the time in physics texts written by "natives" - no difference at all. May be more American than British; and if, as Jack thinks, this is an error, it is by now almost a norm

Responses

+8
2 mins
Selected

of the order of

I think "on the order of" must be an error, and it should be "of the order of" in both cases.
Peer comment(s):
agree Helen Genevier
0 min
Thank you.
agree Rachel Fell : "of the order of" is correct for the UK, anyway, and is logical; "on the order of" sounds incorrect to me\\Hm, to Vitaly, not in my neck of the woods or amongst the literate physicists I know;-)
7 mins
Thank you.
agree Maureen Wilkins (X)
8 mins
Thank you.
disagree Brie Vernier : Sorry, Jack, but "on" is definitely NOT an error: http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=on the order of on the order of: 2 : ABOUT, APPROXIMATELY //"in the order of" indicates a sequence, unless "Order" is cap'd
15 mins
In this particular context I don't see how one can be "of" and the other "on". I have not come across "on", but it seems it is used in US English. IN the order of sounds better than "on" to me.
agree David Moore (X) : and with Rachel
1 hr
Thank you.
agree Romanian Translator (X)
1 hr
Thank you.
agree maryrose : and with Rachel. AAMOI, I googled "on the order of" and got not one instance of that string of words together, but of course I accept what speakers of US English say! "As a matter of interest"!
1 hr
Thank you. What is AAMOI?
agree Dr. Andrew Frankland : You certainly wouldn't find "on the order of" amongst many chemists, and as an editor I would change it every time, US English speaker or not.
2 hrs
Thank you.
agree Peter Shortall
2 hrs
Thank you.
neutral Ken Cox : With Brie: in common US usage (even among educated people) 'on the order of' means 'approximately'. If you specifically mean 'having a order of magnitude of', then I agree that 'of the order of' is at least preferable, but it is rare in general US usage.
10 hrs
agree Alfa Trans (X)
9 days
Thank you.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "I'm not that happy with the necessity of grading just one answer here because it is the entire discussion that is very helpfull to me. I'd like to say thanks to everyone participated!"
+2
4 mins

no difference

Both are widely used.
Ashcroft-Mermin's Solid State Physics uses predominantly "on the order of", but "of the order of" is perfectly fine, too.
In "on the order of" there is just one "of"; it might sometimes be useful. E.g., in "N is of the order of the number of degrees of freedom of the system of electrons" there are a bit too many ofs - you can reduce it by one by using "on the order of".
Peer comment(s):
agree Ken Cox : this may be a UK/US thing; I'm accustomed to 'on the order of'. In any case, IMO it's bad style to mix the two forms (as in the asker's example), since this creates the false impression that there is a difference in meaning.
6 mins
Yes, the two should not be mixed. As for US/UK: I don't know; the Guardian as well as the Encyclopaedia Britannica website seem to have quite a few examples for "on the order of".
disagree David Moore (X) : As an ENS, "on" in this context is wrong - the words "on" and "of" have different meanings. And if Kenneth is "used to" "on the order of" in this context, shame on those chemists in the USA using it (scientists are seldom the best of linguists anyway!)...
1 hr
Thanks for pointing out that "on" is not used in BE. However, it is very common e.g. in physics texts written by native speakers of AE. No need to comment "Shame on the USA".
agree Brie Vernier : Strongly disagree with David -- "on" in this context is clearly NOT wrong, see my reference in response to Jack above
8 hrs
agree Kari Foster : Often used interchangeably, and often used very imprecisely to mean "approximately".
18 hrs
Something went wrong...
5 mins

to the order of OR of the order of

I have not come across the expression "on the order of". It is usually "to the order of" OR "of the order of" depending on the grammatical structure of the sentence.
Peer comment(s):
agree Rachel Fell
5 mins
Thanks Rachel
disagree Brie Vernier : "to" is entirely different; "on" is NOT incorrect/unusual ... : http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=on the order of on the order of: 2 : ABOUT, APPROXIMATELY
14 mins
The "on" here refers to "spent" and not to the "the order of"
Something went wrong...
7 mins

OF the order is more precise

as in mathematics it means
having the order of magnitude specified by ...

of the order of
1 approximately : sales increases are of the order of 20%.
2 Mathematics having the order of magnitude specified by.

on the order of
1 another term for of the order of (sense 1) above.
2 along the lines of; similar to : singers on the order of Janis Joplin.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 mins (2006-09-28 12:05:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

and in your example 0.5 is more precise than 10

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2006-09-28 13:35:55 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

to brie: it's new oxford american dictionary that came with my macbook, why?
are they not good enough for you?! i've noticed the converted commas!!!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2006-09-28 13:39:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

oh, dear...
Peer comment(s):
neutral Brie Vernier : Please provide references for your "definitions"
12 mins
Something went wrong...
+1
2 hrs

'of', 'on', or 'in' - it's just better to use the same preposiiton in both cases

Despite Jack's and David's insistence on "on" being the only grammatical usage, Google searches don't support such a statement:

"coefficient is IN the order of 10": 1030 hits
"coefficient is ON the order of 10": 823 hits
"coefficient is OF the order of 10": 1070 hits

Granted, a healthy portion of the hits must be from translated sources. However, the statistics don't make a convincing case for any of the 3 prepositions being the only correct one.

David points out that "of" has a different meaning than "on". That's very true. Still, if you cosider the meanings of both, it's obvious that both can be used to express roughly the same concept:

"the coefficient is OF the order of 10" = "the coefficient BELONGS TO/HAS the order of 10"

"the coefficient is ON/IN the order of 10" = "the coefficient FALLS INTO/ONTO the area close to 10"

Finally, a word on David's "shame on the USA": in the course of the last 2-3 centuries, AE admittedly has deviated some from the Queen's English in a number of aspects. One may even prefer to call AE "American language". That doesn't make it any worse or better language than BE, so there is no reason for "shame".

What’s in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet
(or sweeter!)
Peer comment(s):
neutral David Moore (X) : Errr...but we both "insist" on "OF", don't we...but thanks all the same!
35 mins
You are most welcome, David.
agree Alison Jenner : OED says it can be "of", "in" or "on": http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/order?view=uk
1 hr
Thanks, Alison.
Something went wrong...
Close search
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search