May 1, 2015 15:13
9 yrs ago
German term

dis DIS

German to English Art/Literary Music Bell tones
Haupttöne der Glocke: dis/1 - dis/0 - DIS - fis/0 - ais/0.

d sharp 1, d sharp 0, f sharp 0 and a sharp 0 are clear but what is the upper-case DIS?
Proposed translations (English)
3 +2 d# D# (one octave between them, D# being lower)
3 -1 minor/major

Discussion

Erik Freitag May 1, 2015:
3. There are several usual systems for describing which octave a given note is in. None of them uses a slash. If the numbers indeed designate octaves, the source text uses two mutually exclusive systems in parallel (Helmholtz (upper/lower case plus apostrophes) and scientific (no case distinction, but numbers)).

In other words: IMHO, this problem can't be solved without further context and/or asking the client for clarification. However, it's worth repeating that minor and major certainly play no role here.
Erik Freitag May 1, 2015:
Something's wrong First of all: minor/major can be safely disregarded. Capital and small letters are indeed sometimes used to distinguish between minor and major chords or keys, but the source text is talking about individual notes.

Hans' explanations and links are indeed helpful in order to learn something about the surprisingly peculiar and complicated acoustics and psychoacoustics of bells.

That aside, I strongly suspect that something's wrong with the source text, no matter from which perspective you look at it:

1. The term "Hauptton" is a bit fuzzy. If the text really talks about one single bell, it should have only one "Hauptton" (which should be called "Schlagton" or "Nominal". The multiple tones compounding the sound of a bell are called "Teiltöne" (quite the opposite of "Haupttöne".
2. Maybe the source should read "Haupttöne der Glocken" (plural), but if the notes denominate multiple bells, the resulting ensemble would be quite unusual.
Hans-Jochen Trost May 1, 2015:
@Ramey Ramey, you're getting keys for music scores on one side and single tones and their harmonics on the other mixed up. As for keys, you're absolutely correct. For the tones of bells, look for instance here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellfounding
Scroll down some to find this quote:
"The bell's strongest harmonics are tuned to be at octave intervals below the nominal note, but other notes also need to be brought into their proper relationship."
The question at hand is about a bell and names three octaves of the dominant tone plus a few other harmonics. If I am not mistaken, the notes diagram on this page
http://www.russianbells.com/choosing/sound.html
shows three octaves of C, one Es and a G as the main tones of a bell.
Here are a few more pages that speak to this concept of leading tone and harmonics or overtones:
http://www.verdin.com/bells/cast-bronze-bells.php
http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/douglas-craig/bells/Basic/tunin...
http://www.hibberts.co.uk/phd/phdart2.htm
http://www.hibberts.co.uk/rayleigh.htm
http://www.hibberts.co.uk/simpson2.htm
The last one describes the tone of a bell made in 1477 for the Cathedral of Erfurt, Germany as
E, e, g#, b, e', g'#, b', c'#
Ramey Rieger (X) May 1, 2015:
Here I am sitting next to the music theorist with about 40 years of notation experience. When the two are used in one text, lower case is used to distinguish minor (dis) from major (Dis). But if there is really such a sharp discrepancy in opinions, ask the client.
philgoddard May 1, 2015:
OK, you've convinced me! I'm no great expert on music but, as Helen says, it can't be "major" and "minor"
Ramey Rieger (X) May 1, 2015:
Absolutely, Lesley dis is D sharp minor, Dis is D sharp major.
Hans-Jochen Trost May 1, 2015:
@Phil The first reference contrasts the sizes of bells for a/0 and A, with lower-tone bells having to be larger to accommodate the lower frequency and thus larger wavelength of the sound waves. The second reference lists available bells in strict order of descending tone frequency, look at the notation in the first column. So no, they don't explain it explicitly, but to me the use of the notation is nevertheless quite obvious.
Alice Bergfeld May 1, 2015:
Hi Lesley, yes, I think you are. I had music as an ap course at school and I remember that minor keys were always given in lower case letter, while major keys were given in capitals.
H. C. Centner May 1, 2015:
DIS I have worked in the business for many years and never heard of this difference.
Major and minor descriptions of keys, intervals or chords, they aren't tones. Perhaps the capitalization refers to the octave but I really don't know.
I think I have just discovered the answer myself Am I right in thinking that dis is D sharp minor while DIS is d sharp major?

Proposed translations

+2
47 mins
Selected

d# D# (one octave between them, D# being lower)

Es handelt sich bei DIS um die nächste Oktave unter (tiefer) dis/0. Englische Texte scheinen in diesem Zusammenhang keine Unterscheidungen zu machen nach Groß- und Kleinschreibung (siehe zweite Grassmayr-Referenz) und benutzen dann die deutsche Notierung:
http://www.hibberts.co.uk/terhardt.htm
Insofern ist mein Übersetzungsvorschlag also ungenau, aber mir fällt nichts besseres dazu ein.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 50 mins (2015-05-01 16:04:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I apologize - I should have used English in the explanation.
Note from asker:
No problem Hans-Jochen! Deutsch verstehe ich fast genau so gut (aber nur fast). Danke!
Peer comment(s):

agree philgoddard : This sounds convincing, but I can't see anything in your references that supports your answer. //Thanks!
12 mins
Yes, there is no outrigth explanation, but the use does fit. I just posted a discussion entry with details.
agree Erik Freitag : That'd be the obvious explanation, however, I'm having doubts about the coherence of the source text. Thanks for the very helpful and interesting links!
6 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you, Hans-Jochen."
-1
2 hrs

minor/major

according to the live expert
Peer comment(s):

disagree Erik Freitag : The expert must have been denied even what little context we have. Capitalization is indeed used to differentiate between minor and major keys or chords, but we're talking about individual tones/notes here, which can't be minor or major./I would.
4 hrs
As the source text is rather sketchy, I would not rule out this suggestion.
Something went wrong...
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