| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Peanuts! Thread poster: Estelle Demontrond-Box
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Dear ProZees,
I am writing to vent my frustration.
After quoting on a ProZ job post, I was contacted by an American author to translate one book of about 60,000 words.
I received a "Your quote has been accepted" message and the author contacted me to discuss price.
I referred to the recommended rates by the ATLF (Association of French Literary Translators) of around 20 USD a book page, with some royalties.
He came back to me sayin that he was actually consid... See more Dear ProZees,
I am writing to vent my frustration.
After quoting on a ProZ job post, I was contacted by an American author to translate one book of about 60,000 words.
I received a "Your quote has been accepted" message and the author contacted me to discuss price.
I referred to the recommended rates by the ATLF (Association of French Literary Translators) of around 20 USD a book page, with some royalties.
He came back to me sayin that he was actually considering two other translators who were offering to do th ebook for 1,000 USD plus 45% royalties.
That is 0.016 USD a word!!!
Some colleagues are just killing the business really...
I could only say that I could NEVER match these rates. I just find such rates offensive and am pretty upset that anyone whould offer such rates.
What do you think guys? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Phil Hand 
China
Local time: 23:23
Chinese to English
| 20 bucks a page sounds plenty low to me... | Jun 22, 2015 |
But anyway... My response to that kind of thing is now: that's fine, but those are amateurs. They can't live on that money, so they're not doing it professionally, and you will get an amateur product. It may be quite good, or it may be... amateurish.
If the writer's a hobbyist, then it won't matter to him. But if he cares about getting his book presented properly, he'll listen.
| | | | | Somehow strange! | Jun 22, 2015 |
I know!
This is what surprises me most.
This author is apparently a NY Times best-seller but seems to self-publish and even maybe translate into Spanish.
The author is also managing the translation process.
I find this pretty bizarre.
I told him that at t his price, he is unlikely to get a good translation but he replied that he was going to have these 10 pages proofread by two proofreaders and even asked me to be one of those!
I do not think so....
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 23:23
Chinese to English
| You've just gotta have faith | Jun 22, 2015 |
We do produce (much) better work than the amateurs. I mean, if we don't, then let's just pack up and go home, right? The clients will come back to us with their tails between their legs, asking us to do a proper job. It's OK that they go off and have their little experiments with cheapie translators and machine text processing. When they actually care about the end result, they'll know where to come.
I dunno, if he was willing to pay a proper rate for the proofreading, you might as ... See more We do produce (much) better work than the amateurs. I mean, if we don't, then let's just pack up and go home, right? The clients will come back to us with their tails between their legs, asking us to do a proper job. It's OK that they go off and have their little experiments with cheapie translators and machine text processing. When they actually care about the end result, they'll know where to come.
I dunno, if he was willing to pay a proper rate for the proofreading, you might as well do it. Let him see how a professional works, and at least you've made a few bucks for a couple of hours' work. ▲ Collapse
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Phil Hand wrote:
...
I dunno, if he was willing to pay a proper rate for the proofreading, you might as well do it. Let him see how a professional works, and at least you've made a few bucks for a couple of hours' work.
Why do you think the author would be willing to pay a proper rate for proofreading? And if your theory about the amateurs is true and the translation is rubbish, what would Estelle really be doing?
The low offers of these amateurs are a good example of what is going on these days a certain places in our industry. Recommendation: seek out other places, but also continue to educate any contacts (like this one).
I would say to Estelle that she should continue to make her point about professional work at professional prices - best practices and that that's how a serious translator is able to run a successful translation service etc...
If the guy won't understand, I wouldn't work with him, neither as his translator nor as his proofreader.
Just my thoughts
| | | | | Proofreading | Jun 22, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Why do you think the author would be willing to pay a proper rate for proofreading? And if your theory about the amateurs is true and the translation is rubbish, what would Estelle really be doing?
Just my thoughts
I was really tempted to reply that my proofreading rates were probably too high for him!
I feel sorry though that as Bernhard points out, people are uneducated when it comes to translation quality and easily tempted into cheap translations.
This author seems to be very successful in the States and could ruin his reputation by presenting a very poor translation of their work....
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 20:53
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | The dynamics of book translation | Jun 22, 2015 |
The per word rate applies only to commercial translation. In literary translation you generally make a proposal for the entire project such as a book, or a short story or a play or a script. It can be misleading to convert the final figure to per word rate, for it could be either too low or unbelievably high, depending on how you have negotiated, and depending on the market for the translated project.
Books are large projects that will keep you busy for lengthy periods. If you do ta... See more The per word rate applies only to commercial translation. In literary translation you generally make a proposal for the entire project such as a book, or a short story or a play or a script. It can be misleading to convert the final figure to per word rate, for it could be either too low or unbelievably high, depending on how you have negotiated, and depending on the market for the translated project.
Books are large projects that will keep you busy for lengthy periods. If you do take up books, don't look only at the per word rate, but also take into consideration the enjoyability of the job, the fame it can give you if your translation clicks, and the prospects of future projects where you can charge higher once you have made a name for yourself as a successful book translator. ▲ Collapse
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Estelle Demontrond-Box wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Why do you think the author would be willing to pay a proper rate for proofreading? And if your theory about the amateurs is true and the translation is rubbish, what would Estelle really be doing?
Just my thoughts I was really tempted to reply that my proofreading rates were probably too high for him! I feel sorry though that as Bernhard points out, people are uneducated when it comes to translation quality and easily tempted into cheap translations. This author seems to be very successful in the States and could ruin his reputation by presenting a very poor translation of their work....
If the original book is indeed a NY Times bestseller and you will get 45% of the profits, I would still ask for a reasonable fee for your translation work because you won't receive any money until the translated version is sold and it will only sell well if it is translated by someone who knows what they're doing and gets paid adequately. A decent compensation and down payment for the translation is an important aspect of the success of any book translation. The translator can really only guarantee the excellent translation - to make it a bestseller will depend on the audience - so there are two things at work here. And you need to get paid for the first thing, the translation.
Now if you are in a position to believe that the book will be a bestseller in the target language and you choose to forego any remuneration for the translation (or do it for peanuts) and solely trust in getting the big royalties, well, go ahead. But it's not what we as translators should be doing. Not all books are bestsellers (so you need to make sure you get paid for your work through charging for the translation), and bestsellers are usually translated by excellent translators, but there's no guarantee, nevertheless.
[Edited at 2015-06-22 04:20 GMT]
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It's also completely wrong, I hold, to argue that when it comes to literary translation, we should think of the enjoyment of the work and the possible renown and accept peanuts for it?!
Translating a novel for example is completely different from your usual more repetitive and somewhat formulaic "regular" translation work. It's much more of a creative, artistic endeavor. Furthermore, the more complex and the greater the literary quality of the novel is, the more complex and sophisti... See more It's also completely wrong, I hold, to argue that when it comes to literary translation, we should think of the enjoyment of the work and the possible renown and accept peanuts for it?!
Translating a novel for example is completely different from your usual more repetitive and somewhat formulaic "regular" translation work. It's much more of a creative, artistic endeavor. Furthermore, the more complex and the greater the literary quality of the novel is, the more complex and sophisticated the creative act of translating becomes. You will re-read and re-think the same passages many more times than with regard to other translation work. Of course, it can be a joyous experience being creative, but it's a longer-lasting, more challenging task than non-literary translation. Thus, in my opinion, it should actually pay much more than non-literary translations and it should primarily be done through the direct payment for exactly that task, not only through hope for a big royalties check.
And it sets a bad example if we allow the uncertain prospect of royalties to become the basis for the payment for the translation of the literary text. It's not a sign of best practices in our profession. Yes, there should be royalties as well, yes, their should be renown. It is deserved just as the author deserves his/her renown and money for creating the original artistic text.
Professional translators need to understand the value of their work and stick to adequate remuneration. Or we all are "getting sold down the river."
[Edited at 2015-06-22 23:56 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Thayenga
Germany
Local time: 17:23
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
I do believe that 45% of the royalties is much more a "promise" than a fact. This would (theoretically) leave the author with 55%. This might work is s/he self-publishes the book or sells it in e-book format. We all know how few e-books have become bestsellers.
If the author wants the book to be published by a publisher, then 45% royalties for the translator is a fairytale, unless it's 45% of the author's royalties. Even that is a little unrealistic. Just my 2 cents.
| | | | Attila Piróth
France
Local time: 17:23
Member
English to Hungarian
+ ...
| Six commandments of fair play in literary translation | Jun 22, 2015 |
CEATL put a lot of effort into distilling straightforward recommendations on acceptable practices in literary translation contracts. Their Hexalogue has been adopted by literary translators' associations across Europe.
The fee for the commissioned work shall be equitable, enabling the translator to make a decent living and to produce a tr... See more CEATL put a lot of effort into distilling straightforward recommendations on acceptable practices in literary translation contracts. Their Hexalogue has been adopted by literary translators' associations across Europe.
The fee for the commissioned work shall be equitable, enabling the translator to make a decent living and to produce a translation of good literary quality.
The initially proposed fee does not allow a decent living – unless the author guarantees that the 45% royalty will be paid on a decent number of copies whatever the sales figures are (which I strongly doubt).
The 45% figure is unheard of in translation contracts with established publishers. Usually the distributor's share is around 40-60%, so there is simply no way the translator could be paid 45% of the list price.
45% of something else is a possibility – but if the offer was made without specifying the base of the calculation then it is not at all serious.
Moreover, how does the translator verify the sales figures? That's a very important issue for usual royalty rates (which very rarely exceed 5% of the list price) for established publishers. With such a high figure in a self-publishing setting the risks are much higher.
Best,
Attila ▲ Collapse
| | | | | peanuts and peanuts | Jun 22, 2015 |
(corrected: I wrote "working hour" but meant "billable hour")
The problem is that 20 USD per 1500 characters plus negligible royalties is a typical rate for literary translations and that this in no way permits a translator "to make a decent living" while producing a "translation of good literary quality", unless the work sells a ton of copies (in which case it might suffice for a decent living).
The German book translators' union organized a framework contract with a n... See more (corrected: I wrote "working hour" but meant "billable hour")
The problem is that 20 USD per 1500 characters plus negligible royalties is a typical rate for literary translations and that this in no way permits a translator "to make a decent living" while producing a "translation of good literary quality", unless the work sells a ton of copies (in which case it might suffice for a decent living).
The German book translators' union organized a framework contract with a number of publishers last year and got very excited about agreeing to a somewhat lower rate for a somewhat longer page. They were very excited about their achievement, which requires some fairly creative math to arrive at the German minimum wage of 8.50 EUR as a freelancer (which requires sales of close to 20 EUR per billable hour).
Thus, working with standard rates in the literary publishing industry essentially guarantees that you will earn peanuts (albeit not the rancid peanuts offered by the worst agencies and publishing houses and self-publishers).
The best solution to this problem is to do something else. The second-best solution might actually be to do what this author is proposing. If the book was a best-seller in English and if you think it will sell well in French and if he will let you be responsible for publishing it, so that you have full access to the money and information related to its sales (and transfer his royalty to him), and if the royalty figure is really based on the after-tax sales price (= Amazon gets 30%, author gets 25%, you get 45%), then you are probably betting around 5000 EUR (minus whatever lump sum is agreed and whatever copies actually sell) that the book will sell over around 2250 copies at 5 EUR per copy (after tax). If it sells more, then you are better off than with a conventional contract and you stand to earn very good money if the book sells well.
I'm not a mathematical genius, so my figures may be wrong, but the basics are correct: standard rates in literary publishing are peanuts and self-publishing with extremely high royalties (translating on a speculative basis) is a potential way to - occasionally - create a win-win situation for authors and translators.
[Edited at 2015-06-22 11:40 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| The writer probably didn't mean to be offensive | Jun 22, 2015 |
The low rate offered doesn't surprise me. If you consider that the vast majority of writers don't earn a decent living, it's small wonder that they are unable to pay much for translation. An article I read recently states that most writers earn less ... See more The low rate offered doesn't surprise me. If you consider that the vast majority of writers don't earn a decent living, it's small wonder that they are unable to pay much for translation. An article I read recently states that most writers earn less than £600 per year.
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/jan/17/writers-earn-less-than-600-a-year
Writing is often something they do because it is their passion, rather than because it is lucrative. Maybe it's the case that the translators who are willing to work for such low rates are doing so in the hope that they will enhance their future career prospects or, as has been suggested, perhaps translation is not their only job, but a part-time interest (as is the case with most writers). They shouldn't be condemned for doing so. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Quite often they don't know what it's all about | Jun 22, 2015 |
What does an average monoglot author know about translation?
Quite often their knowledge of the target language is limited or passive, if any.
If the translation is too close to a "dictionary-based version" of their original text, they'll think it's okay. They'll mentally back-translate that into their source text, and their mind will recognize it as its own creation.
Poor readers! If they can, they'll have to back-translate most of it to extract the meanin... See more What does an average monoglot author know about translation?
Quite often their knowledge of the target language is limited or passive, if any.
If the translation is too close to a "dictionary-based version" of their original text, they'll think it's okay. They'll mentally back-translate that into their source text, and their mind will recognize it as its own creation.
Poor readers! If they can, they'll have to back-translate most of it to extract the meaning.
Fortunately, nowadays it costs nothing to publish an e-book, so a truckload of paper, ink, and printing/binding labor won't be wasted. However the author will have spent some money on an amateur translation to have their book in a different language.
Most of my web site was built around answering questions from clients and prospects. I found it more convenient to give them URLs than writing the same answers over and over again.
I recently found adequate material to show my EN-speaking clients and prospects what an amateur translation looks like, so I can show them before they go for the cheaper option.
I had already compared professional human translation with machine translation, from EN into PT at:
http://www.lamensdorf.com.br/comparison.html
The (new!) comparison of amateur vs. professional translation, from PT into EN is at:
http://www.lamensdorf.com.br/professional-translation.html ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Some more thoughts and suggestions | Jun 22, 2015 |
Michael Wetzel wrote:
The best solution to this problem is to do something else. The second-best solution might actually be to do what this author is proposing. If the book was a best-seller in English and if you think it will sell well in French and if he will let you be responsible for publishing it, so that you have full access to the money and information related to its sales (and transfer his royalty to him), and if the royalty figure is really based on the after-tax sales price (= Amazon gets 30%, author gets 25%, you get 45%), then you are probably betting around 5000 EUR (minus whatever lump sum is agreed and whatever copies actually sell) that the book will sell over around 2250 copies at 5 EUR per copy (after tax). If it sells more, then you are better off than with a conventional contract and you stand to earn very good money if the book sells well.
I'm not a mathematical genius, so my figures may be wrong, but the basics are correct: standard rates in literary publishing are peanuts and self-publishing with extremely high royalties (translating on a speculative basis) is a potential way to - occasionally - create a win-win situation for authors and translators.
[Edited at 2015-06-22 11:40 GMT]
Just a couple of more thoughts. 45% is in general a very unrealistic number in the world of literary translation. That is to say when you work with established publishing houses/publishers. If you were to be able to do all this simply with and through the author, I wouldn't want to get involved in and be responsible for publishing the translated novel myself and making sure the book gets advertised and sold. Still, if you decide to go for that, there has to be a professional contract that specifies exactly how you will get your money.
By the way, there should always be a contract and a down payment (40-50%) for translating a book.
The reality is closer to this: you work with a publisher with whom you have a professional contract, you get an acceptable fee for the translation (albeit, granted it is usually less if you calculate it in words than for non-literary work) and you get royalties (somewhere between 1-9%). I am all for more royalties, but you have to be in a more powerful position (renowned translator of successful novels) to be able to ask for that.
[Edited at 2015-06-22 14:38 GMT]
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