Referencing non-UK laws (French source) Thread poster: Sian Cooper
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Sian Cooper 
France
Local time: 23:38
French to English
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In memoriam
Hi, everyone, I wonder if you can give me some advice. I'm not a legal translator, I specialise in IT, technical, general business. I'm sorry, this is going to be rather long, but I need to be specific. I shall have to quote French language source in order to ensure I am quite specific, but I'm sure non-French specialists can equally assist and advise, should you be so kind.
I have taken on the translation of a a software support services contract, FR-EN. It is not a specific instan... See more Hi, everyone, I wonder if you can give me some advice. I'm not a legal translator, I specialise in IT, technical, general business. I'm sorry, this is going to be rather long, but I need to be specific. I shall have to quote French language source in order to ensure I am quite specific, but I'm sure non-French specialists can equally assist and advise, should you be so kind.
I have taken on the translation of a a software support services contract, FR-EN. It is not a specific instance of a contract, it is a contract template. The purpose of the translation appears to be to produce a multi-national contract template - I had initially thought it was meant to be UK-only.
I am comfortable with general legal contractual phrasing, but I am having problems with sections specifically referencing legislation that is valid in France but may not apply or be the same or exist in the UK/other countries. I do not know what the equivalents are in the UK or how correctly to reference them. Is referencing the correct laws in the target country a normal part of legal translation?
I have proposed UK-generic solution for defining the parties, does this seem like an acceptable solution that a lawyer could work with to adjust, please (that was the client's request on inquiry)?
[COMPANY NAME] , [LEGAL STRUCTURE], registered with Companies House in the UK, registration number XXXXXXXX, or duly registered as a legally trading company following the tax and incorporation laws in force in the country in which they trade, details to be inserted below, and whose registered office is at [ADDRESS], represented by...
Is it in any way sensible to try to produce a similarly generic solution for the following, and would anyone be able to tell me how I should express this in standard UK contract terms, please?
22.9. LOI APPLICABLE / TRIBUNAL COMPETENT
Le présent Contrat est régi par le droit français.
En cas de litige relatif a la validité, l’exécution ou l’interprétation du contrat, compétence expresse est attribuée au tribunal de commerce de Versailles (sauf en matière de propriété intellectuelle pour laquelle compétence est attribuée au tribunal de grande instance de Nanterre), nonobstant pluralité de défendeurs ou appel en garantie, même pour les procédures d’urgence ou les procédures conservatoires en réfère ou par requête.
What really worries me is the references to specific laws and regulations, particularly pertaining to the treatment of personal data. e.g.
...conformes à la finalité des traitements au sens de l’article 6 de la loi n°78-17 du 6 janvier 1978 modifiée.
les Données des Bénéficiaires lesquelles sont par nature des données à caractère personnel au sens de la loi n°78-17 du 6 janvier 1978 modifiée et de la Directive n°95/46/CE du 24 octobre 1995 telle que transposée en droit français (ci-après « la Législation Données à Caractère Personnel »
There is also a section on mediation, following, evidently, the French mediation process finishing, if necessary, at the Centre de Médiation et d’Arbitrage de Paris. I can research further the UK mediation process, I think, I havn't got that far yet.
No doubt if I were actually a legal translator, I would be aware of the relevant UK legislation and the solutions to these issues. I apologise for having taken this on without full awareness of the implications. I would be most grateful for your support.
Thank you... no, no. THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH!!!! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Requested by poster | Marie Wagner (X)
Malta
Local time: 23:38
English to French
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| referencing non-UK law | Feb 6, 2014 |
I am afraid when you are translating something legal referring to the law specific to a country, you have to refer to the legal terms, not generic and applicable to the UK. Each country has a specific system and it has to be complied with and understood by the people who have to refer to it in this country.
In the case mentioned, you do have to produce a language translation. Companies in France are given a SIRET and SIREN number when they register In the Registrar's office in a commercia... See more I am afraid when you are translating something legal referring to the law specific to a country, you have to refer to the legal terms, not generic and applicable to the UK. Each country has a specific system and it has to be complied with and understood by the people who have to refer to it in this country.
In the case mentioned, you do have to produce a language translation. Companies in France are given a SIRET and SIREN number when they register In the Registrar's office in a commercial court. They will also then be given an APE code. Those dénominations cannot be translated because they refer to a specificity of the country. However, non French speakers who are going to go through the registration process, will be given those SIREN form to fill in, etc...
To tackle such a translation one has to be an expert in both laws, and preferably a sworn translator. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sian Cooper
France
Local time: 23:38
French to English
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TOPIC STARTER In memoriam | I've been thinking about this | Feb 6, 2014 |
Hi, guys, thanks for your responses so far. I think I was a little unclear in what I said, because the context was a little unclear in my mind too. I have been mulling it over.
I am quite comfortable with translating contracts where it is an informational translation: the laws as stated remained the same. That is not an issue for me; my knowledge, research and language skills are quite adequate for the job in that instance.
I am also quite aware that there are differen... See more Hi, guys, thanks for your responses so far. I think I was a little unclear in what I said, because the context was a little unclear in my mind too. I have been mulling it over.
I am quite comfortable with translating contracts where it is an informational translation: the laws as stated remained the same. That is not an issue for me; my knowledge, research and language skills are quite adequate for the job in that instance.
I am also quite aware that there are different methods of business registration from country to country - else I would not have raised the question, after all. I am personally based and registered in France, for example.
I am also aware that the client's desire for a generic template is, to put it politely, naive. I was not aware of this requirement before I started. I do intend to raise the legal issues with the PM. However, before I do, I would like to clarify or better understand one aspect.
This is a contract for a Software as a Service product. The selling company will remain French, in France. The direct customers (of the SaaS) may be French, UK or other. Their data, whichever country they may operate in, will be hosted in France. Their customers will generally be from their country but not necessarily, online sales are always potentially international.
Given this, do the seller's activities (specifically relating to data handling/ backup etc.) remain bound by French law, but the buyer's activities (in those same matters) remain bound by their own country's laws? Does it automatically fall under international law (because of cross-boundary data protection, arbitration etc.)?
I would just like to be clear what sort of issues I wish to raise before reverting to the PM.
Thanks again. ▲ Collapse
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| You are translator not a lawyer | Feb 6, 2014 |
Hi Sian,
From my experience, the most you can do is produced an English-language version of a French contract. You cannot draft a contract subject to English law to achieve the same effect as the French contract.
I wouldn't research the UK data protection legislation or similar at all. All you can do is look for the appropriate English-language terminology to translate the French.
For example, in the clause on jurisdiction you cannot change the phrase "thi... See more Hi Sian,
From my experience, the most you can do is produced an English-language version of a French contract. You cannot draft a contract subject to English law to achieve the same effect as the French contract.
I wouldn't research the UK data protection legislation or similar at all. All you can do is look for the appropriate English-language terminology to translate the French.
For example, in the clause on jurisdiction you cannot change the phrase "this contract shall be governed by the laws of France" to "this contract shall be governed by the laws of England".
Even if you had legal training you would probably not be insured (unless you had a valid practising certificate) to offer legal advice. Therefore, you really should not substitute English law provisions for French law provisions.
The end client must decide whether they want different language versions of a French contract - this is something translators can provide. If they want advice on whether a French contract is applicable to international transactions and, if not, how it should be modified, they must consult their lawyers.
Questions e.g. as to whether the seller's activities remain bound by French law should be answered by lawyers not translators.
HTH Paul ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sian Cooper
France
Local time: 23:38
French to English
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TOPIC STARTER In memoriam | Thanks, that confirms what I thought | Feb 6, 2014 |
Hi, Paul. Thanks for confirming this for me. I had actually already mailed the PM earlier advising them that I shall translate the words, but that the client needs to consult a lawyer who is versed in International, or at least European, law.
I think they are a small (one man band?) company trying to go international on the cheap - and it is easy to do physically with the internet, after all! - but who is not aware of the legal implications (like me ... See more Hi, Paul. Thanks for confirming this for me. I had actually already mailed the PM earlier advising them that I shall translate the words, but that the client needs to consult a lawyer who is versed in International, or at least European, law.
I think they are a small (one man band?) company trying to go international on the cheap - and it is easy to do physically with the internet, after all! - but who is not aware of the legal implications (like me )
Thanks all! Yet another learning curve for me, eh. Its angle remains relentlessly steep! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Stick to the French Law | Feb 14, 2014 |
I would second what Paul Skidmore says. I actually discussed this with him when we had lunch in Berlin last Spring!
As Paul says, trying to re-draft a contract so that it applies English law is what an English solicitor would do.
However, it is perfectly fine to just translate the French version, keeping the references to French law. In fact, I often translate a French law and provide the French title in brackets at least once in the text, so the reader can find the pa... See more I would second what Paul Skidmore says. I actually discussed this with him when we had lunch in Berlin last Spring!
As Paul says, trying to re-draft a contract so that it applies English law is what an English solicitor would do.
However, it is perfectly fine to just translate the French version, keeping the references to French law. In fact, I often translate a French law and provide the French title in brackets at least once in the text, so the reader can find the particular law in question if they need to.
The reason is that most contracts having an international aspect will have a clause stating the law that will apply to it. Your contract specifically states that French law applies, so English law has nothing to do with it, even if you are translating it into English.
Even if the other party is based in England, Ireland or elsewhere, most legal systems will allow the parties to decide what law applies to a contract. In this case, that's French law.
On a side note:
There are, however, exceptions under European law for consumers to the effect that an English consumer buying from a German company under a contract subject to German law according to the terms and conditions may invoke English law if English law is more favourable for her.
I often wonder should I point this out to translation clients (even though I'm not a qualified lawyer in either jurisdiction)?
Legal translation and legal advice often intermingle, I find. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:38
French to English
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| Contract should generally specify which law is applicable | Feb 14, 2014 |
Sian Cooper wrote:
Given this, do the seller's activities (specifically relating to data handling/ backup etc.) remain bound by French law, but the buyer's activities (in those same matters) remain bound by their own country's laws? Does it automatically fall under international law (because of cross-boundary data protection, arbitration etc.)?
Hi Sian --
I can't recall translating an IT contract of this type that didn't actually *specify* which jurisdiction would apply in the case of dispute. I'm not sure there's a consensually agreed upon "automatic" answer.
It really sounds to me as though the client needs to (a) hire a lawyer to draft the contract, then (b) hire a translator to translate it. They seem to be trying to skip step (a)...!
[Edited at 2014-02-14 17:21 GMT]
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Sian Cooper
France
Local time: 23:38
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER In memoriam | Thanks! (and luckily this is what I did) | Feb 14, 2014 |
Hi Neil and Thomas, thank you for your answers.
Following advice here, and my own additional research (finding more examples of how other people had handled this, on live sites), I went with using the French law. It did actually say in the contract that it came under the Tribunal de Versailles for any mediation - in my legal ignorance at the point I posted I was not sure whether this was the right way for them to approach it, but later I found that it is. In other places, particular... See more Hi Neil and Thomas, thank you for your answers.
Following advice here, and my own additional research (finding more examples of how other people had handled this, on live sites), I went with using the French law. It did actually say in the contract that it came under the Tribunal de Versailles for any mediation - in my legal ignorance at the point I posted I was not sure whether this was the right way for them to approach it, but later I found that it is. In other places, particularly for the data protection bits, I referenced the French law.
The only bit that this left that concerned me was the opening (detailing where the business was registered etc). I advised the agency that writing a 'generic' bit could make either me or them or both liable should it not be legally correct, and that the client should get his lawyer to draft the 'generic' or internationalised phrasing so I (or someone) could then translate it.
I've not had any come-back, so I hope they do do that.
Thanks again all for your help. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Adam Warren
France
Local time: 23:38
Member (2005)
French to English
| Some references and tips | Mar 18, 2014 |
What you are referring to here is the French Data Protection Act of 1978.
The specific reference you are seeking will be found on the Legifrance site:
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/
The site may provide an English translation of this, but if not, at least you will have the French wording of the relevant part of that Act. You need to use a fair amount of common sense in using Legifr... See more What you are referring to here is the French Data Protection Act of 1978.
The specific reference you are seeking will be found on the Legifrance site:
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/
The site may provide an English translation of this, but if not, at least you will have the French wording of the relevant part of that Act. You need to use a fair amount of common sense in using Legifrance, which is valuable, but its English drafting is discernibly lame in places.
Here, I apologise if I am telling you how to suck raw eggs, but obviously, the UK Ministry of Justice may provide information on relevant points of law and the machinery of justice:
https://www.justice.gov.uk/
Methodologically, it is probably better to keep to the language pair or pairs you are used to using, and keep your references to French law explicit, e.g. "the French data protection Act of [No.] [date] termed the Act on Computers and Freedom". Mutatis mutandis for any other country's legal system.
Give the numbers, preceded where necessary by "No." (not N°) as punctuated in French, with one important exception: if the French says "le (i) du 2ème alinéa à l'article XX", for an English-speaking audience, you should move from the generic to the specific, so as to keep the drafting crisp and clear:
Article XX, paragraph 2 (i) of the [name and date of legislative instrument].
An important distinction should be drawn between the law of England and Wales, on the one hand, and Scots law on the other. And another major distinction should be made between UK law and American (as well as Canadian) law, and their respective legal language.
A useful reference work to scan is Glanville Williams: Learning the Law, fourteenth edition, published by Sweet & Maxwell, ISBN978-0-414-04173-8 in paperback. It's important to have the latest edition, because of the numerous recent constitutional and structural changes.
To return to matters of method, your principal would be well advised to retain a lawyer who knows his/her way around both the English and the French legal systems, and specialises in contract law. Legal drafting of the kind your client is seeking is not a job that can be handed out to a high-street solicitor; it's got to be done by a specialist. The workflow should be:
the client hands you the documents for translation, and these are then passed for vetting to the specialist lawyer. After discussion between the lawyer and the client, the translated documents should be returned to you clearly marked with any changes, for you to update your own records (TM, database, terminology software).
I think it would be wise also to take out professional indemnity insurance.
I think your way of handing matters with your client shows great diplomacy and a mature approach.
I have purposely kept clear of the other parts of the document with which you express unease, but I am giving you my e-mail below my signature should you wish to have "boilerplate" for some or all of those.
I'm sorry if I've been stating the obvious at times, but I hope some of this may help.
With kind regards,
Adam Warren
(IanDhu - 41189)
[email protected] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sian Cooper
France
Local time: 23:38
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER In memoriam | Really useful info., Ian | Mar 18, 2014 |
Hello, Ian. Thank you so much for taking the time to write this very complete and helpful answer. It must be said that for the job in question, it is too late, being over a month ago. I much appreciate you saying I showed a mature approach - I felt far from mature at the time!
But your detailed post is most useful - as were the earlier responses to the thread - and as ever, I am so grateful to the network of helpful translators out there. I think I need to start a personal database ... See more Hello, Ian. Thank you so much for taking the time to write this very complete and helpful answer. It must be said that for the job in question, it is too late, being over a month ago. I much appreciate you saying I showed a mature approach - I felt far from mature at the time!
But your detailed post is most useful - as were the earlier responses to the thread - and as ever, I am so grateful to the network of helpful translators out there. I think I need to start a personal database of 'useful feedback'.
One day I will be able to return the favour to the world in general, I'm sure... ▲ Collapse
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