| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Poll: Would you accept a discount for 50-74% matches? Thread poster: ProZ.com Staff
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Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 22:37
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Philip Lees wrote:
Can you imagine a carpenter, or metalworker, saying something like: "Hey, I just bought myself a new lathe, and now I can complete some jobs in half the time. So I'm going to drop my rates by 50%."?
Sure. Suppose Ikea decides to outsource the making of their wooden furniture to individual carpenters. Those who use only hand-tools may cry "it's the end product that matters" but Ikea is more likely to work with carpenters that have specific time-saving tools... and it should not surprise anyone that Ikea would want to pay less if a particular job takes less time to complete, even if the speed increase is due to the special tool that the carpenter buys himself.
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Philip Lees wrote:
You're talking about a very special case, Chris. Your scenario is more like editing a revision than a new translation. I do that kind of work sometimes, and of course I don't charge the full translation rate. I wonder why the clients in the situation you describe would bother to send the new accounts to a translator at all, if all they have to do is insert numbers and dates into a standard template. I suspect you're just playing devil's advocate here.
In any case, I don't see what this has to do with MT - at least, not for the kinds of text I normally deal with. I do translate quite a lot of abstracts from medical congresses, where the structure is fairly standard, but the content is quite different from one job to the next.
As I've said in other threads, I use MT now as a typing aid, making rough corrections as I go. Most of the work I contribute as an experienced translator comes after that phase.
I'm always the devil's advocate, but the point stands IMHO whatever the text and whatever the technology.
If you wouldn't charge full whack in my example, why would you charge for work you haven't actually done in other circumstances, such as a 90% match or an unchanged MT segment?
| | | | Kirk Jackson
Local time: 16:37
Member (2005)
French to English
+ ...
Obviously CAT tools have their uses and can save time and money. HOWEVER, I've worked on MANY projects where fuzzy matches often took longer to "fix" than it would have to just translate the segments from scratch. So, I was paid less but required to do more...not very smart.
Sometimes, fuzzy matches can take longer to "fix" than it would to just translate a segment from scratch!!!
Compare 2 possible scenarios:
Unique segment:
1. Read source segment.... See more Obviously CAT tools have their uses and can save time and money. HOWEVER, I've worked on MANY projects where fuzzy matches often took longer to "fix" than it would have to just translate the segments from scratch. So, I was paid less but required to do more...not very smart.
Sometimes, fuzzy matches can take longer to "fix" than it would to just translate a segment from scratch!!!
Compare 2 possible scenarios:
Unique segment:
1. Read source segment.
2. Type translation.
3. Done!
Fuzzy match segment:
1. Read source segment.
2. Read fuzzy translated segment.
3. Look at differences / understand what original translator did.
4. Judge quality of fuzzy translation.
5. Figure out and decide how to "fix" the fuzzy translation.
6. Make sure terminology from TM is consistent with itself and your unique translations.
6. Use mouse to click in segment, make changes, deletions, rearranging, etc. etc.
7. Re-read and hope you "fixed up" the old fuzzy translation properly and that the entire segment is correct.
8. Done.
(even short or closely matched fuzzy segments can take longer to "fix" versus just quickly typing in the translation, especially considering the FLOW and rhythm of the translation skill versus the starting/stopping/deciphering with certain fuzzy segments)
PLUS, there is the annoying practice of using CAT tools for EVERY single document under the sun. A little common sense would go a long way in deciding how much time and effort to put into a job just to be able to use a CAT tool, especially for something that has zero chance of being recycled in the future.
~ Just my opinion, based on about 25 year of experience and having used Studio/Trados, Wordfast, SDLX, memoQ, memsource ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Definition of work | Jun 9, 2022 |
Ice Scream wrote:
I'm always the devil's advocate, but the point stands IMHO whatever the text and whatever the technology.
If you wouldn't charge full whack in my example, why would you charge for work you haven't actually done in other circumstances, such as a 90% match or an unchanged MT segment?
An unchanged MT segment doesn't mean I'm charging for work I haven't done.
If that's the best you can do, I'm not going to play any more.
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Samuel Murray wrote: Philip Lees wrote:
Can you imagine a carpenter, or metalworker, saying something like: "Hey, I just bought myself a new lathe, and now I can complete some jobs in half the time. So I'm going to drop my rates by 50%."? Sure. Suppose Ikea decides to outsource the making of their wooden furniture to individual carpenters. Those who use only hand-tools may cry "it's the end product that matters" but Ikea is more likely to work with carpenters that have specific time-saving tools... and it should not surprise anyone that Ikea would want to pay less if a particular job takes less time to complete, even if the speed increase is due to the special tool that the carpenter buys himself.
Well done, Samuel! You exposed the weakness of my analogy by extending it and making it even weaker. Ikea keeps prices down by mass-producing large quantities of product and cutting out the craftsman, so their production process is the carpentry equivalent of MT.
One could argue, then, that translators who wish to compete with MT would have to offer this kind of discount.
But I'm not going to do that and, I suspect, neither are you.
| | | | Michael Newton
United States
Local time: 16:37
Japanese to English
+ ...
Ikea: Swedish furniture made in China. Their meatballs are good though.
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Philip Lees wrote:
An unchanged MT segment doesn't mean I'm charging for work I haven't done.
If that's the best you can do, I'm not going to play any more.
Surely it does. Say we have a 10 word sentence.
Manual translation takes 50 seconds.
Editing 90% CAT match takes 10 seconds.
MT happens to translate it perfectly.
All three require a 10 second final check.
Total time taken:
60 seconds
20 seconds
10 seconds
How can it be wrong for an agency to want to pay less for the CAT/MT?
| | | | Jan Truper
Germany
Local time: 22:37
Member (2016)
English to German
Ice Scream wrote:
Say we have a 10 word sentence.
Manual translation takes 50 seconds.
Editing 90% CAT match takes 10 seconds.
MT happens to translate it perfectly.
All three require a 10 second final check.
Total time taken:
60 seconds
20 seconds
10 seconds
How can it be wrong for an agency to want to pay less for the CAT/MT?
Say we have ***the next*** 10 word sentence.
Manual translation takes 50 seconds.
Editing 90% CAT match takes 10 seconds.
***MT gets relevant elements of the sentence wrong -- 30 seconds wasted on reading the MT / trying to make it usable / realizing that it's shite, plus 50 seconds for the manual translation.***
All three require a 10 second final check.
Total time taken:
60 seconds
20 seconds
***90 seconds***
I like MT, mainly to gauge my own translation against it -- but generally, for most texts I deal with, it does not warrant a pay cut. (Neither do 50–74% matches, by the way.)
[Edited at 2022-06-09 19:04 GMT]
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Inga Petkelyte
Portugal
Local time: 21:37
Lithuanian to Portuguese
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| Thanks no thanks | Jun 16, 2022 |
Rita Translator wrote:
True, except in this case it's usually the agencies providing the translator with the TM to use, which is where the fuzzy matches come from. So in your example it would be more like me purchasing tools and providing them to the carpenter to use on a project in my house that I want done a certain way and that can only be done using those tools. And then it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a little bit of a discount for providing the tool.
As a matter of fact, my tools (my memory) do the same job faster and more accurately. Indeed, in those projects where I used the client's CATs, I remember just one single time where I would have looked up for a word. All the others I knew and it would have been faster to write them from scratch rather changing the already introduced endings. Leaving alone the aditional time for accessing the tools, unlocking them, waiting until they are ready... eeeh.
The translator, and only the translator, should be in charge of giving discounts. In an ideal world
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