| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Pitiful-rate job offers on Proz Thread poster: Simon Bruni
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wonita (X)
China
Local time: 15:20
| Politically incorrect | Jan 30, 2012 |
Bunyan Chang wrote:
Of course it is a unfair rate as EUR 0.02/word to the developed countries such as USA, UK, Germany, Japan ect. However, it is a very fair price for most undeveloped countries, there are many translators accept a rate of 50RMB/1000 words, which means 0.05RMB per word; if you see from this rate, you will know that EUR 0.02/word that eqauls to RMB0.17 per word is actually a good one from those low-level Chinese translators.
China is not an underdeveloped country, it is a developing country already…
| | | | | On intermediation | Jan 30, 2012 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
One thing to give us 20% more:
There is a new category of agencies lately, they are small but many, the "intermediate agencies". These take the jobs from the end client and sell them to translation agencies or to other intermediate agencies. Purely parasitic role and mostly in the last 5-6 years (you all noticed it 5 yrs ago, didn't you... it hit your payment).
If we can find a way to work together with our agencies (our clients) to eliminate these "intermediate brokers", we would all have saved 20% at least.
Educating end clients is a method. End clients are very interested on where their money goes - they would prefer that their money goes to people who work, that is, the actual translation agencies and the translators.
Hi Eleftherios,
Yes, those “new” intermediaries are part of the problem, particularly in some countries such as Argentina. I posted a message on this same thread, but it was held for review, something that never had happened to my messages, as I believe that I am very respectful of the established rules. As I expected, it was finally approved in its entirety, but it ended up buried under many other messages. It appears at the end of page 2 of this thread, if you are curious.
Argentina is a very special situation. The T&I profession is well developed there, particularly in the pair English-Spanish, with many universities and tertiary education institutes teaching 4-5 year T&I programs.
Up to about 2001, the peso was pegged to the dollar, a 1-for-1 exchange rate, an untenable situation that lead to a social crisis, much like what is happening today in some European countries within the Eurozone. The result was that overnight the dollar went from 1 peso to 3 pesos, without immediately affecting internal prices. Many Argentine translation agencies realized that the US and European agencies were already used to, say, 10 dollar cents per word, and that they could become sub agencies of those foreign agencies at those prices. On the other hand, since the devaluation had yet to affect the domestic prices, these sub agencies could offer 4 to 5 dollar cents to the translators (12 to 15 Argentine peso cents at the new exchange rate, a 20 to 50% increase over the pre-devaluation rates). Many a translator fell for it. On top of that, the agencies, now sub agencies, could profit on the increase on business volume, something that is not available to the translator who has a limited and fixed number of hours per day.
During the 2006 ProZ Conference in Buenos Aires, I met with some agency owners at the bar of the hotel where the Conference was held. I wanted to learn what it would take me to get help from Argentine translators to form a translation team, based as I was in the United States. All the agency owners told me: “Don’t worry about forming a team or an agency. Just get the clients and any of us could get you a “print ready” translation at 10 cents per word. You keep the difference.” I asked why they did not go after the direct client. Again, unanimously, they told me: “It can't be done.”
During the following years, many other Argentine agencies joined this strategy. I understand, although I can’t vouch for these numbers, that they are now being offered between 6 to 7 dollar cents by the foreign agencies. At those prices, can you expect that these sub agencies offer anything over 3 cents or less to the translators?
I refuse to qualify a price as fair or unfair. I prefer to let the translators know what they can expect if they reach directly to the foreign agencies and, then, decide how to proceed. Fairness is an elusive concept in a global market.
Many Argentine established translators have formed organizations and dedicated themselves to educate the younger translators. In the few next weeks they will be presenting roundtables in Argentina (registration already closed) on the US market, how to reach it, what to expect. If the audience decides they do not need intermediaries, more power to them. I, being at this time in Argentina, am an “invited guest.”
Educating them on the reality of the translation market, on the multiple markets, really, is what we, established translators can achieved, not just saying this is or is not fair.
My 15 cent opinion.
Greetings to all from Argentina,
Luis
| | | | | that's competition for you ... | Jan 30, 2012 |
You don't hire the best electrician in town to replace a breaker, and you don't hire the best translator in town to translate a letter to your grandmother (well, maybe you do ... I dunno).
Point is, that it is perfectly sensible that some people will prefer to pay less for a low quality job and some will prefer to pay lots for a high quality job. Also, some might like to find a good translator, but simply can't afford to. What's wrong with them being able to get at least a half way ... See more You don't hire the best electrician in town to replace a breaker, and you don't hire the best translator in town to translate a letter to your grandmother (well, maybe you do ... I dunno).
Point is, that it is perfectly sensible that some people will prefer to pay less for a low quality job and some will prefer to pay lots for a high quality job. Also, some might like to find a good translator, but simply can't afford to. What's wrong with them being able to get at least a half way OK job done.
As for those who take the cheap jobs, it certainly doesn't bother me. That's how the market works. It matches supply and demand, and lots of clients still demand high quality work and must pay to get it.
If you're worried about your rates, you should be emphasizing quality and let the others compete on price. As you know already, the jobs they take aren't worth your while anyways.
In the meantime, continue honing your skills and efficiency so you have lots of time to earn more or play more, as suits your character. That is the capitalist way, no? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ildiko Santana 
United States
Local time: 12:20
Member (2002)
Hungarian to English
+ ...
MODERATOR | pitiful-rate offers are no excuse for pitiful-rate quotes or no quote | Jan 30, 2012 |
George Hopkins wrote:
Simple
Don't quote.
How about quoting what we deem acceptable? Even if it is 10 (15, 20..) cents higher than what the job poster specified. I don't see why not at least give it a try. Imagine a job poster offering $0.02 and receiving 50 bids in the $0.10-$0.14 range. If there are enough bidders and enough jobs, and we do this long enough, this could eventually get the message across. Call me a dreamer but when I see job postings with per word rates near zero that receive a number of bids, I like to think that my esteemed colleagues asked for decent rates in their bids. Why should those who need our services tell us how much we want to charge? I believe it should be the other way around.
(Yes, I also believe in cosmic consciousness and intelligent civilizations in our galaxy... )
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| On multiple markets | Jan 30, 2012 |
njweatherdon wrote:
You don't hire the best electrician in town to replace a breaker, and you don't hire the best translator in town to translate a letter to your grandmother (well, maybe you do ... I dunno).
Point is, that it is perfectly sensible that some people will prefer to pay less for a low quality job and some will prefer to pay lots for a high quality job. Also, some might like to find a good translator, but simply can't afford to. What's wrong with them being able to get at least a half way OK job done.
As for those who take the cheap jobs, it certainly doesn't bother me. That's how the market works. It matches supply and demand, and lots of clients still demand high quality work and must pay to get it.
If you're worried about your rates, you should be emphasizing quality and let the others compete on price. As you know already, the jobs they take aren't worth your while anyways.
In the meantime, continue honing your skills and efficiency so you have lots of time to earn more or play more, as suits your character. That is the capitalist way, no?
Indeed, NJ, there are many markets, and I am not concerned about it. I believe that for professional translators there are at least two races, one to the top and one to the bottom. The winner of this last race gets the right to play the final against a machine translation.
I do believe though that the players must know the facts, the existence of multiple markets and how to play in each of them. They must decide where they play, without hoping that they will be able to change competition in the future. This may or not be so. If they can do it, more power to them.
Best,
Luis
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... Even if people see the budget, they may still quote a higher price. (Some people have been advocating for doing that, in order to educate these outsourcers.) ...
The word 'educate' is a wrong word here.
I would put as 'to resist the plague and not to wait till some site introduces the rules that will prevent me/us from seeing these low rates'.
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 21:20
French to German
+ ...
| I don't quote... | Jan 30, 2012 |
as I have set my filters to weed out low-rate offers.
The fact that my inbox was full with "job offers" before I changed these settings and that there are none after the change shows where outsourcers put their focus.
I am however not willing to dance to their tune.
Sergei Tumanov wrote:
... Even if people see the budget, they may still quote a higher price. (Some people have been advocating for doing that, in order to educate these outsourcers.) ...
The word 'educate' is a wrong word here. I would put as 'to resist the plague and not to wait till some site introduces the rules that will prevent me/us from seeing these low rates'.
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 14:20
Greek to English
+ ...
"Some professions have minimum rates and other ways to restrict competition. Translation has no barriers to entry at all. So anyone can come, with no qualifications, no skills, they just have to lie on their CV and try to get a job at a low or not so low rate."
Ah, no. I have a dream ... that some day, thousands of former lawyers and financial professionals will enter the market as translators. With the ambition these people have, their drive, their macho competition, ... See more "Some professions have minimum rates and other ways to restrict competition. Translation has no barriers to entry at all. So anyone can come, with no qualifications, no skills, they just have to lie on their CV and try to get a job at a low or not so low rate."
Ah, no. I have a dream ... that some day, thousands of former lawyers and financial professionals will enter the market as translators. With the ambition these people have, their drive, their macho competition, and their one objective to make as much money as possible, and drive nothing less than a Mercedes, rates will go 300% up and no issue about bad editors either (they'll respond "ok, don't waste my time, I'll transfer you to my secretary, next!").
Then, after the house is cleaned, we can enter again, and with our usual mentalities make a pig's breakfast out of it.
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Is it forbiden to make a lot of money in Romania? Do they have a law or market practice that says "professionals shall satisfy only their minimum living expenses"? The project manager will give 12 cents to the American translator if she can't reach you a specific day. So, if you want to be competitive, why not charge 10 cents, instead of just 2? the money's already there you know... ▲ Collapse
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| Some/many outourcerers need no education | Jan 30, 2012 |
Sergei Tumanov wrote:
... Even if people see the budget, they may still quote a higher price. (Some people have been advocating for doing that, in order to educate these outsourcers.) ...
The word 'educate' is a wrong word here. I would put as 'to resist the plague and not to wait till some site introduces the rules that will prevent me/us from seeing these low rates'.
True, Sergei, these outsourcerers know exactly what they want and the price they are willing to offer. (Some, however, do not know, misguided by some of the numbers appearing in some portals.) To those outsourcerers, the only thing we can say: good luck if you find a good translator.
However, the service providers, the translators, specially those new in the field, must let be known that there are many markets, at very different rates. They must also be taught how to reach those markets.
My 15-cent opinion,
Luis
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 14:20
Greek to English
+ ...
Luis Arri Cibils wrote:
Many Argentine established translators have formed organizations and dedicated themselves to educate the younger translators. ...
Luis
Let's unleash former lawyers, financial pros, and the like, who are tough. They'll squeeze everyone else's margin to 1%. These are serious pros, they' re not zombies. And they work together (have you noticed how similar their rates are in each area?). We' re all afraid to say that we' re whimps. I do miss that drive from my financial days. We were not arguing about adjectives... we were showing off to each other our expensive cars, especially when they were paid in cash. I'm not talking about the crooks on Wall Street - I'm talking about good pros.
But these people here won't change. The agency makes 25 cents per word, gives her "2", and she says that's a fair deal. 10 years down the line there will be nothing on which to capitalize - to use your experience and hard work, except one thing: more work for the same rate. And 30 years later she won't have anything to sell and will expect a bankrupt government to take care of the rest. I wonder how many pieces of proof I need that this is not a business, it's just hired labor, despite of what some say here (I don't even know where they base such an assumption - you' re a business owner? What do you actually own? - you' re just a translator, implementing elementary small business principles to fish jobs left and right - you' re not building any capital assets here, not even an office).
Educate them? Are you kidding me? I know, I know, good intentions and all that - can you teach them not to be abused voluntarily? Otherwise I'll be thinking "hey the new generation of whimps is coming out, guns blazing, watch out ... " - Give me a break. I like and respect and even admire you and the people you say are trying to educate the youth, but the only result I see in the last 10 years is... well, never mind...
| | | | | You can't change "*me" (*them) | Jan 30, 2012 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
"Some professions have minimum rates and other ways to restrict competition. Translation has no barriers to entry at all. So anyone can come, with no qualifications, no skills, they just have to lie on their CV and try to get a job at a low or not so low rate."
Ah, no. I have a dream ... that some day, thousands of former lawyers and financial professionals will enter the market as translators. With the ambition these people have, their drive, their macho competition, and their one objective to make as much money as possible, and drive nothing less than a Mercedes, rates will go 300% up and no issue about bad editors either (they'll respond "ok, don't waste my time, I'll transfer you to my secretary, next!").
Then, after the house is cleaned, we can enter again, and with our usual mentalities make a pig's breakfast out of it.
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Is it forbiden to make a lot of money in Romania? Do they have a law or market practice that says "professionals shall satisfy only their minimum living expenses"? The project manager will give 12 cents to the American translator if she can't reach you a specific day. So, if you want to be competitive, why not charge 10 cents, instead of just 2? the money's already there you know...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1fq1G_UYoU
So we have to find out a different solution...
And one more very important thing: this is not a country specific attitude but individual specific.
You can find low rate translators all over the world: in the US, in the UK, in Germany, in Hungary, in Slovakia etc. The problem is in the person: the lack (meaning zero) of business skills and experience.
[Edited at 2012-01-30 19:47 GMT]
| | | | Jaroslaw Michalak
Poland
Local time: 21:20
Member (2004)
English to Polish
SITE LOCALIZER
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
Is it forbiden to make a lot of money in Romania? Do they have a law or market practice that says "professionals shall satisfy only their minimum living expenses"? The project manager will give 12 cents to the American translator if she can't reach you a specific day. So, if you want to be competitive, why not charge 10 cents, instead of just 2? the money's already there you know...
The competition in English-Romanian pair does not come from "American" translator... It comes from the Romanian teacher next door who charges 2 cents because it allows him to make twice as much as in his school. And there are more in line...
By the way, if the 2 cent translator makes twice as much as his countrymen on the average and the 12 cent translator gets well below the average wage in his country... which one earns more?
I am somewhat surprised, though, that now you are the supporter of the tough stance against outsourcers, considering that not long ago you wrote you will not take two days off out of fear of losing 100% of your clients... Is it forbidden to take vacation in Greece?
[Edited at 2012-01-30 21:29 GMT]
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Claudio LR
Local time: 21:20
English to Italian
+ ...
| Let's unleash financial pros... | Jan 30, 2012 |
[quote]Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
Let's unleash former lawyers, financial pros, and the like, who are tough. They'll squeeze everyone else's margin to 1%. These are serious pros, they' re not zombies. And they work together (have you noticed how similar their rates are in each area?). We' re all afraid to say that we' re whimps. I do miss that drive from my financial days. We were not arguing about adjectives... we were showing off to each other our expensive cars, especially when they were paid in cash. I'm not talking about the crooks on Wall Street - I'm talking about good pros...
I don't know what you were doing exactly in the financial field, I was in the hedge fund industry, so for sure it's a pretty aggressive world… (my boss, who owned the company, was driving several luxury cars, had a magnificent villa etc.). Personally, however, I would not generalize. Anyway I think there are 2 things that made me start differently from most of the translators you describe (probably generalizing a bit too there, but not that much...):
1. When I started I already had money, many translators start with hardly anything, then they say I need to pay my bills. This is the worst way to start a freelance activity or the best way to become what you describe…
2. I had specialized knowledge of a field that most translators don’t have, even those who call themselves financial translators (most call themselves specialized just because they work in one field but they have learned all they know while translating, that is through glossaries, dictionaries, TMs and Google...). How many have learned most of what they know outside translation? Very few, and those few have very little competition.
Number 1 and especially number 2 are powerful weapons and give you a relatively high pricing power, even with translations agencies (which means squeezing their margins as you say, I gave an example last year http://www.proz.com/forum/money_matters/197669-how_much_do_translators_earn-page2.html second post of mine, I think it speaks for itself…)
The only problem is to find the right clients, and it can take a while for the reason I explained in my previous post here. But once you have them, you know they will not go elsewhere simply because you have no competitors.
And these few people earn very good money even in the translation business, sure not as much my previous boss but well when you want millions you must be ready to lose them as well. The company of my boss went bankrupt in 2006 (I had left the boat a couple of years earlier...)
[edited for a mistake]
[Modificato alle 2012-01-30 23:38 GMT]
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 14:20
Greek to English
+ ...
| Unleashing... | Jan 30, 2012 |
"Is it forbidden to take vacation in Greece?"
Ha ha, good one, I get your point. No, it's not, it's mandatory over there. I live in America though...
I also get your points about the teachers in Romania etc.
So, what would happen if a translator in Romania charged 3 cents? (that's already 50% income increase). And what will happen to translators when the cost of living in Romania increases? The te... See more "Is it forbidden to take vacation in Greece?"
Ha ha, good one, I get your point. No, it's not, it's mandatory over there. I live in America though...
I also get your points about the teachers in Romania etc.
So, what would happen if a translator in Romania charged 3 cents? (that's already 50% income increase). And what will happen to translators when the cost of living in Romania increases? The teachers will be fine, but how about the translators? That is a problem.
When I started I already had money, many translators start with hardly anything
However, when you need money, then you should charge more, right?
That is why the mentality "I don't have money, therefore I will lower my rates" is a bit off. I understand the panic mentality, but how long can panic last? At some point you say "I need money, therefore I should not lower the rates".
Translators don't even try. In my market, 5-6 yrs ago (I happened to do some project management back then), we were giving 10 cents to translators in Greece and some of them turned around and said "that's ok, I'll do it for 4, I don't need more" and such things. Amazing! I felt like opening an agency immediately and have people giving me money back in an instant! Santa Claus on a daily basis. I can't deal with the complexities of agencies and take responsibility for other languages, so I didn't open one. But the ones who did are lucky. You will not find another field with so many people willing to work with such terms. (except Wall Street).
Talking about controlling your calorie intake effectively and proactively... ... "I don't want the 10 you give me, give me 4, I'm fine" - it's still ringing in my head...
Now, I have to take it easy here - Greece is a country in which the word "profit" is a sin. If you are not a skinny saint starving in the desert, then you must be a thief... you will never find another country in which if you make more than the absolute poverty level, then you feel guilty about it.
Hey guys, if anyone of you in here thinks that he/she is overpaid, please feel free to send me the balance by paypal, I'll take it!
Ok, seriously, I understand limitations and problems. Some of us in other countries can't do it, it's impossible. But I repeat, the only thing we have is our current income and rates - there's no equity building in this business. ▲ Collapse
| | | | LEXpert
United States
Local time: 14:20
Member (2008)
Croatian to English
+ ...
Jabberwock wrote:
...and the 12 cent translator gets well below the average wage in his country... which one earns more?
Jabberwock, what country would that be?
For the sake of argument, $.12 x 250 = $30/hr.
For comparison, the average weekly wage in the US for Q4 2011 was $762, equating to $19.05/hr for a 40hr week. This places plausible - perhaps even low - hourly earnings for a translator about 50% above the median in the US.
For a median weekly income in the US, you can buy yourself a really nice computer when the one you have breaks down, or a killer flat-screen TV, or, where I live, 870 liters of gasoline.
What can somebody working for 2 cents per word in Romania buy for their weekly income? Every single one of the things is mentioned is almost certainly more expensive there than in the US. From my experiences living in Eastern Europe (not Romania, admittedly) and spending expended period of time there every year, virtually all consumer goods are more expensive in these "cheap" countries.
Sorry, I just don't see how the 2c/word translator is going be "richer" by any method of economic calculation.
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