| Strani v okviru teme: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11] > | Macedonian vs Macedonian conceptual conflict Sledi avtorju: Said Kaljanac a.k.a. SARAJ
|
|---|
Maria Karra 
Združene države
Local time: 03:03
Član (2000)
grščina - angleščina
+ ...
Said Kaljanac a.k.a. SARAJ wrote:
So as we were seeking for a compromise, I abandonned the idea of ISO and was trying to find something that could please all.
And you did.
Now I feel unconfortable, because first I had proposed ISO, then moved on something else, and finally here again ISO is proposed.
Said, it doesn't look like we have a say in the matter. We did not know this, which is why we had this long discussion. In the end, if site policy is to use ISO and if we're not planning to depart from this policy, then we all have to accept the use of ISO. Throughout the site.
I suggested the language classifications with families headers. What I suggested was not made up, but classified by experts and linguists who have been studying and comparing languages and their families and subfamilies, not for years but for centuries.
Moreover, my classification was a rough copy which could have been discussed and re-organized.
n another thread ( http://www.proz.com/topic/83234 ), when I read some proz members comments on my so called solution, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
Some are trying to make a fool out of me when they start a conversation about linguistics without even having apparently studying it. Moreover, either they propose already proposed suggestions or criticize without giving any kind of solution.[/quote]
I saw that and I was disheartened and disappointed. Your classification was not arbitrary, and if there were any omissions or discrepancies or other problems, we would have worked them out! I know you have studied sociolinguistics so I'm sure you knew what you were talking about. I would have helped too, and we could even ask other linguists if we needed help; we have many on this site. Or we could just open our linguistics books! As you said, this classification is not exactly a new unimplemented scheme nor is it subject to our likes and dislikes; experts have worked on it for centuries. In the end the non-English-forums page would be more complete and professional and even educational.
I also read the criticism by colleagues who apparently have not studied linguistics; (in the same way that we received criticism in this thread by people not sensitive to the issue regarding Macedonian or not knowledgeable enough about it.) I don't know what to tell you. Everybody is free to participate in the forums. I just wish that the criticism received were more constructive. I hope you know that in no way does that criticism reflect on your efforts or knowledge. It reflects on other participants' willingness to provide constructive arguments and to collaborate.
Earlier some tried to talk etymology in this site.
That would be me! I had an important point to make (I considered it relevant to the discussion and I still do) but I am sorry if it caused you more headache.
Maria
| | | | | Response to Sherefedin | Sep 10, 2007 |
Hello Sherefedin,
Thanks for your summary and questions. I can understand your frustration and I have to take the blame. Sherefedin MUSTAFA wrote:
1. Where were the proz.com staff members all these days since the beginning of the discussion?
2. If proz.com had a policy of using the ISO standard as you say why didn’t you tell that immediately in the thread http://www.proz.com/topic/68984 ...?
3. Where were all moderators and other proz.members during the discussion? Why didn’t they give their contribution and help us find a solution...
The policy of following ISO decisions where ISO decisions have been made, has been our policy since ProZ.com went online in 1999--and whenever issues such as this one have arrived to me, I have responded accordingly. Unfortunately, I had apparently not posted this policy in our FAQs or moderator documentation, and as a consequence, not all moderators, or even Enrique, have always had this policy at the top of their mind. For this I apologize. (That said, the fact that we use ISO standards for languages and countries is a matter of record in the forums (moderator and public forums, respectively).)
I also regret that we do not yet have an infrastructure in place for staff to review all forum posts in a timely manner. There are too many posts per day for us to read them all. This is a situation that we would like to correct, but have not yet managed. I am sorry that as a result, you and others have been inconvenienced significantly in this case.
Proz.com management would be proud to have moderators like Said who, once again, deserves its support rather than wise criticism after the event.
I can only join Enrique in congratulating Said on his initiative, dedication, and general handling of this issue. I regret that I had not taken the time to familiarize myself with this issue sooner, as Said had requested. (Sorry, Said!) In any case, I am not aware of any criticism leveled by a staff member against Said.
Enrique and I spoke and his post in this thread was made on my behalf.
Thanks for your membership and support, Sherefedin.
| | | | Sherefedin MUSTAFA
Nizozemska
Local time: 09:03
nizozemščina, flamščina - albanščina
+ ...
| Thank you indeed Henry for your time and reply | Sep 10, 2007 |
Dear Henry,
It would be more than useful if you could give us any suggestion in how we, participants of this discussion, could turn this into a success.
Best Regards,
Sherefedin
| | | | Elena Petelos
Združeno kraljestvo
Local time: 08:03
angleščina - grščina
+ ...
| Thank you, Henry | Sep 10, 2007 |
Henry D wrote:
That said, the fact that we use ISO standards for languages and countries is a matter of record in the forums (moderator and public forums, respectively).)
Thank you, Henry. I understand that at some poin in the near future "Macedonia" will be amended accordingly to reflect the ISO standard (i.e. F.Y.R.O.M.).
If I am wrong in assuming this, please, accept my apologies. If, however, I am right, I do not think there's any point in continuing this discussion, as ISO standards are pretty clear.
Kind regards
El.
[Edited at 2007-09-10 18:25]
| | |
|
|
|
| I'll post regarding country name shortly | Sep 10, 2007 |
Elena Petelos wrote:
Henry D wrote:
That said, the fact that we use ISO standards for languages and countries is a matter of record in the forums (moderator and public forums, respectively).)
Thank you, Henry. I understand that at some poin in the near future "Macedonia" will be amended accordingly to reflect the ISO standard (i.e. F.Y.R.O.M.).
If I am wrong in assuming this, please, accept my apologies. If, however, I am right, I do not think there's any point in continuing this discussion, as ISO standards are pretty clear.
Thanks, Elena. I'll post shortly on the matter of country name, I am consulting with Said now.
| | | | | Country name | Sep 10, 2007 |
Dimitra Karamperi wrote:
Either we follow the ISO either we do not. We cannot follow it partially whenever fits us best. Otherwise we have serious reasons to believe that ProZ.com is not an independent community.
That is correct; to the extent possible, we must follow the ISO codes. That said, I should clarify in what manner we have had to diverge:
* As for languages, when a member has requested that a language be added to the list--a language not included in the ISO 3-letter standard for languages--either because that member had a need to locate translators working in the language (usually), or because that member wanted a way to display that language in his/her profile, we have added it if doing so appeared justified.
* In the case of both languages and countries, when official ISO names are too long to fit well in our interfaces, we have abbreviated the names. For example, "Heard Island and McDonald Islands" was shortened to "Heard, McDonald Isl.". When abbreviating, our paramount concern has been clarity, but we have also tried to ensure that our manner of abbreviating is neutral with regard to geopolitical issues.
I am led to believe, given the discussion here in our forums, that in the case of what the ISO refers to as "Macedonia, the former Yugoslav Republic of", it might be neutral of us to abbreviate as "Macedonia, FYRO" (faithful abbreviation of the ISO version) or "Macedonia (FYROM)" (slightly less faithful).
Of course, if the ISO were to change its representation, we would follow suit.
I do not expect this outcome to be suitable to all parties, but for better or for worse, we have decided to stick with ISO decisions on these things. I ask for your understanding.
| | | | Maria Karra
Združene države
Local time: 03:03
Član (2000)
grščina - angleščina
+ ...
| existing acronym | Sep 10, 2007 |
Henry D wrote:
I am led to believe, given the discussion here in our forums, that in the case of what the ISO refers to as "Macedonia, the former Yugoslav Republic of", it might be neutral of us to abbreviate as "Macedonia, FYRO" (faithful abbreviation of the ISO version) or "Macedonia (FYROM)" (slightly less faithful).
Henry, the choice at this point should not be too complicated: we don't need to try to find neutral abbreviations or come up with our own acronym. The acronym already exists and it is FYROM. Not FYRO Macedonia, not Macedonia FYRO. I think anything other than FYROM would simply be inaccurate.
Maria
| | | |
Actually, the name of the country according to ISO is not FYROM, but The Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia. Check it out:
http://www.iso.org/iso/about/iso_members.htm
Sometimes to gain some space it is written FYROM. So I don't see a problem here why Proz couldn't write one of the abbreviated names and keep the rest abbreviated.
| | |
|
|
|
| Country name and abbreviation | Sep 10, 2007 |
Maria Karra wrote:
Henry D wrote:
I am led to believe, given the discussion here in our forums, that in the case of what the ISO refers to as "Macedonia, the former Yugoslav Republic of", it might be neutral of us to abbreviate as "Macedonia, FYRO" (faithful abbreviation of the ISO version) or "Macedonia (FYROM)" (slightly less faithful).
Henry, the choice at this point should not be too complicated: we don't need to try to find neutral abbreviations or come up with our own acronym. The acronym already exists and it is FYROM. Not FYRO Macedonia, not Macedonia FYRO. I think anything other than FYROM would simply be inaccurate.
Maria
In fact according to ISO the name of the country is "Macedonia, the former Yugoslav Republic of", so "Macedonia, FYRO" sounds like a reasonable abbreviation to me.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | Sherefedin MUSTAFA
Nizozemska
Local time: 09:03
nizozemščina, flamščina - albanščina
+ ...
My suggestion would be Macedonia (FYRO).
Kind Regards,
Sherefedin
[Edited at 2007-09-10 21:15]
[Edited at 2007-09-10 21:21]
| | | | Maria Karra
Združene države
Local time: 03:03
Član (2000)
grščina - angleščina
+ ...
| we are creating our own rules | Sep 10, 2007 |
Enrique wrote:
In fact according to ISO the name of the country is "Macedonia, the former Yugoslav Republic of", so "Macedonia, FYRO" sounds like a reasonable abbreviation to me.
I am surprised to receive this answer.
Is the name of UC "University of California" or "California, University of"? I believe it's the former, and please let me know if you disagree.
On lists, for indexing reasons you might find it as "California, University of" (simply because there are thousands of universities and this one would be easier to find under California rather than under University); so in our case, for indexing reasons, and if we decide to write out the entire name, we could write "Macedonia, the Former Yugoslav Republic of,". I would be more than fine with that.
However this doesn't seem to be the case here. There is a space issue. So we are choosing to use an acronym, correct? The existing acronym is FYROM; is it not? We cannot make our own abbreviation rules, in the same way that we would not write "CU" or "California (UO)" but "UC" for the University of California. Am I missing something here?
| | | | | MACEDONIA, THE FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF | Sep 10, 2007 |
Said Kaljanac a.k.a. SARAJ wrote:
Actually, the name of the country according to ISO is not FYROM, but The Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia. Check it out:
http://www.iso.org/iso/about/iso_members.htm
Sometimes to gain some space it is written FYROM. So I don't see a problem here why Proz couldn't write one of the abbreviated names and keep the rest abbreviated.
Thanks, Said. If I am not mistaken, the current version of the codes is accessible via this page: http://www.iso.org/iso/country_codes/iso_3166_code_lists.htm
The HTML and TXT versions, at least, show: "MACEDONIA, THE FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF"
| | |
|
|
|
| Thank you, Enrique | Sep 10, 2007 |
Enrique wrote:
In fact according to ISO the name of the country is "Macedonia, the former Yugoslav Republic of", so "Macedonia, FYRO" sounds like a reasonable abbreviation to me.
Regards,
Enrique
I agree with Enrique, and Sherefedin too.
Thank you,
Gabriela
| | | | | Exaggerating | Sep 10, 2007 |
Isn't it exaggerating to impose either an abbreviation or the whole name, knowing that both exist and that abbreviating the rest of the name is only to gain space? Why is thi sseen as creating new rules?
| | | | Maria Karra
Združene države
Local time: 03:03
Član (2000)
grščina - angleščina
+ ...
Said Kaljanac a.k.a. SARAJ wrote:
Isn't it exaggerating to impose either an abbreviation or the whole name, knowing that both exist and that abbreviating the rest of the name is only to gain space? Why is thi sseen as creating new rules?
As you said, Said, they both exist: the name and the acronym. Please answer this: is the existing acronym not FYROM?
If yes, and if we are NOT going to use the entire name but an acronym, shouldn't this be the acronym used?
If not, what is the existing acronym?
Maria
| | | | | Strani v okviru teme: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Macedonian vs Macedonian conceptual conflict | Pastey | Your smart companion app
Pastey is an innovative desktop application that bridges the gap between human expertise and artificial intelligence. With intuitive keyboard shortcuts, Pastey transforms your source text into AI-powered draft translations.
Find out more » |
| | Protemos translation business management system | Create your account in minutes, and start working! 3-month trial for agencies, and free for freelancers!
The system lets you keep client/vendor database, with contacts and rates, manage projects and assign jobs to vendors, issue invoices, track payments, store and manage project files, generate business reports on turnover profit per client/manager etc.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
